Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:This is interesting to me.
Firstly, because yours is the second instance I've seen. That seems unfamiliar with the army builder concept. Also how popular it is...

I doubt anyone in a toy-focussed fandom is really unfamiliar with army builders... It's more that, with a few exceptions, it's not really been a thing in TF the way it has in other fandoms (the thing with Stormtroopers is that canonically there really are countless identical white-armoured soldiers in the Empire, and they're Our Heroes' most frequent on-screen opponents; TF is much more about individual characters). Sure, if you go looking, there are Vehicons in Prime, G2 Decepticons, Autotroopers, Insecticons and so on, but they're not generally the focus. Prime's probably the exception here in its 'video-game-y' way of throwing loads of generic enemies at the protagonists rather than having the 'heroes' of each faction duke it out every episode.

The Seekers seem to be a weird case of a self-referential loop - the original trio were high-profile redecos, the cartoon pilot similarly used that character model for one-shot generics, and it became a thing to have loads of different-coloured Seekers because that's the thing you make palette swap variations of, because there are already loads of them (but note that they're still seen as named individuals, not a uniform army). It's practically a franchise in-joke at this point.

To MaximalNui's point about market acceptance of repaints / minor retools of the same toy - as I understand it, isn't that a known point of difference between the Asian and Western markets? That Japanese lines tend to feature many redecos of the same character because the market paradigm is "collect 'em all", but in Western markets they found that repaints don't tend to sell well unless they're marketed as a distinct character? I don't begrudge army builder collectors their kink in any way, and certainly there are plenty out there, but I don't believe they make up a sizeable proportion of TF collectors, much less the mass market. (Unless anyone knows otherwise and can point me to a source?)

Glyph wrote: Prime's probably the exception here in its 'video-game-y' way of throwing loads of generic enemies at the protagonists rather than having the 'heroes' of each faction duke it out every episode.

Ahem...

Beast Machines. Home to the original Vehicon drone army...

Glyph wrote: but I don't believe they make up a sizeable proportion of TF collectors, much less the mass market.

The original three Seekers, the Coneheads, Prowl, Smokescreen, Bluestreak, Sunstreaker, Cordon, Spin-Out, Sideswipe, Red Alert, Tigertrack, Deep Cover, Clampdown, Iron Hide, Ratchet, Bumblebee, Goldbug, Cliffjumper, Bumper, Bug Bite, Glyph
Soundwave, Soundblaster, Blaster, Twincast, Inferno, Grapple, Artfire, Jazz, Ricochet, Wheeljack, Exhaust, Tracks, Road Rage, Loudpedal, Ultra Magnus, Delta Magnus, Optimus Prime, Nemesis Prime, Scourge (RiD), Trailbreaker, Hoist etc, etc, etc

Most of the Transformers line is redecos/retools. The Exceptions are the standalone designs. They don't just make up a sizable part of any TF collection. But the franchise itself.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Ahem...
Beast Machines. Home to the original Vehicon drone army...

Of course the BM Vehicons. That's what I get for writing too late at night.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

Glyph wrote: but I don't believe they make up a sizeable proportion of TF collectors, much less the mass market.

The original three Seekers, the Coneheads, Prowl, Smokescreen, Bluestreak {...snip...}

Most of the Transformers line is redecos/retools. The Exceptions are the standalone designs. They don't just make up a sizable part of any TF collection. But the franchise itself.

No, I was talking about people who collect army builder figures, not the figures themselves. There are obviously tons of repaints and retools out there (strictly the majority of the franchise? I'm not actually sure and that would be an interesting survey to do, but TFs are way more complex than typical action figures so gotta make that tooling stretch as far as it can). But note that nearly all those redecos are named individual characters, not what I understand 'army builders' to mean.

Glyph wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Ahem...
Beast Machines. Home to the original Vehicon drone army...

Of course the BM Vehicons. That's what I get for writing too late at night.

BM didn't do many things well. But the Vehicons were a highlight.

Glyph wrote: No, I was talking about people who collect army builder figures, not the figures themselves. There are obviously tons of repaints and retools out there (strictly the majority of the franchise? I'm not actually sure and that would be an interesting survey to do, but TFs are way more complex than typical action figures so gotta make that tooling stretch as far as it can). But note that nearly all those redecos are named individual characters, not what I understand 'army builders' to mean.

TFWiki wrote:Army-building (also troop-building) is a nickname for a toy-collecting habit that involves buying multiple identical toys which represent generic or mass-produced characters

But that is the point. By collecting a significant number of those figures mentioned. You are army building, by default. Unlike the Sweeps, many might have individual names. But they all look the same. So en masse, resemble an army.

Doesn't really fit that TFWiki quote, though, does it? They're not identical, don't represent mass-produced generics and don't fit the Vehicon / Stormtrooper / Cobra Trooper / Foot Ninja type. There's room for different opinions here, I think - for me, army builders are particularly about generic no-name troops, whereas for you it seems to be more about shared tooling / body plans etc. No worries.

But TBH definitions are kinda beside the point as, circling back around to the original post, the question was about how many variant copies of the same figure you could get away with in a line without killing its marketability. All I'm saying is that while army building, by whatever definition, may be popular with certain collectors, that's a subset of a subset of a subset of the toyline's market. Personally, I think shared tooling and frequent redecos are something TF fans mostly tolerate for the sake of getting lots of new toys of different characters, rather than a selling point in itself. If you like the mass-produced aesthetic, that's fine and I'm not trying to say you're wrong; just that it's not what TF lore focusses on, and for me and many others, the reaction is more like "ugh, another use of that same T. rex mould? BW Megs and Trypticon don't look anything like each other!"

Glyph wrote: the question was about how many variant copies of the same figure you could get away with in a line without killing its marketability.

According to the largest set from HasTak aka The Seekers - 19 (named) and counting.

Glyph wrote: just that it's not what TF lore focusses on,

I'd say it was. Before budding, Protoforms etc were brought into the lore. Hence why Ultra Magnus could just have all his parts reconnected and be fine in The Movie. Beast Wars even jokes about it via Primal's die casting joke.

Glyph wrote:BW Megs and Trypticon don't look anything like each other!

Hence why I broached that in this thread. Modernising outdated designs. Personally, I think that applies to all Beast Formers prior to Beast Wars. For example, We've had several updates to a mechanic T-Rex design now. Both in lore and in real world engineering. So Grimlock/Trypticon/Snapdragon shouldn't still look like that. The only reason they do is catering to nostalgia. Even if it no longer makes sense.

"a planet culture revolving around the Formula one isn't plausible".
That remind me of my favorite racing game:SONIC AND SEGA ALL STAR RACING TRANSFORMED,there's also the possibility of drifting and rolling lateraly after jump and fall which makes you faster in the air than on the ground,the all cups champion is Jujustme,they can do more diverse styles of race in theory.

Don't know why Optimus can't keep his flat nose forever. I figure, if someone thinks a more common semi setup is in order, make the front piece a parts forming weapon, backpack or something.

RodimusPrimeUkraine1 wrote:Don't know why Optimus can't keep his flat nose forever. I figure, if someone thinks a more common semi setup is in order, make the front piece a parts forming weapon, backpack or something.

Because variety is the spice of life. Transformers should embrace change more and give us different things. I mean change is literally built into the brand when you think about it

I do think that to a degree, change is good, to keep the brand fresh, but Hasbro knows what sells. Despite the fact that it is still advertised as a "Kids Brand", and is sold as such. I'd honestly like to know how many kids under the age of 12 own a Legacy Velocitron Cosmos? Heck, I've never even seen one.

Yet other designs such as IDW Blurr, G2 Road Rocket just shelf warm. Plenty for the kiddies to choose from, but even they aren't interested.

While T30 Metroplex, and TR Fort Max were "works in progress" when it came to development of Titans, I'd say TR Trypitcon was the first Titan that really looked like an update to the original, and both it, and every Titan since have been immensely popular (At Least Up Until Scorponok). I thin k the Ark was a bit of a letdown. While shuttle mode looked great, the bot mode was a bit to be desired, and even Hasbro added it to its clearance sale mid way through 2022. I'm not sure about Cybertron Metroplex yet. I personally disdain the toy and its awful abdominal floppiness, but then again, I only paid $117 USD for it. Its still too early to determine if it was a success or not.

You can only cater to nostalgia for so long before stagnation sets in. I should point out that I think the brand is doing alright at the moment, we are getting new characters and new takes on characters (think Earthspark and Mirage in RotB). There is a balance to maintain.

Also you can argue all you want but we're still only 30% of the tf buyers in the world (and even then, not all those adult collectors will be online like this).

ZeroWolf wrote:You can only cater to nostalgia for so long before stagnation sets in.

Exactly. I'll point to the best example of that: TMNT. For a line that has the same principle four characters. They have never to my knowledge, gone backwards. Sure Neca and Super7 released figures to cater to the 80's toyline/cartoon. But TMNT media hasn't.

As a brand, Hasbro tends to forget "new" has a proven track record in Transformers. They just need to shift more "80's/G1 fans" out of the decision making process.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:You can only cater to nostalgia for so long before stagnation sets in.

Exactly. I'll point to the best example of that: TMNT. For a line that has the same principle four characters. They have never to my knowledge, gone backwards. Sure Neca and Super7 released figures to cater to the 80's toyline/cartoon. But TMNT media hasn't.

As a brand, Hasbro tends to forget "new" has a proven track record in Transformers. They just need to shift more "80's/G1 fans" out of the decision making process.

This.

But what is so special about Optimus if he looks like literally every other truck out there?

RodimusPrimeUkraine1 wrote:But what is so special about Optimus if he looks like literally every other truck out there?

Easy, it's not about what he turns into, its what he does as a character. None of the Optimus of the Unicron Trilogy turned into that truck, and neither did he in the first 5 live action movies (other then evasion mode in AoE)...and I'm still missing other versions of him. Also Japan was the first to give him an alternative truck when they turned him into Star Convoy.

RodimusPrimeUkraine1 wrote:But what is so special about Optimus if he looks like literally every other truck out there?

Who said his truck mode had to be extremely special too? I'd even argue that the more he looks like normal trucks, the better his disguise.

Besides that, let's think about Prime and his alt mode through the years:

G1: cab-overs were very standard back then, so in actuality, G1 Prime at the time was a boring truck only accented by transforming and being 2 colors separated by halves of the truck mode.

G2: cab-over was the same. His Laser body proceeded to start to update his alt mode to the times as that is when the long nose trucks started really taking over (tanker trailer was a bit more unique though), and his Hero body was a pretty special alt, it didn't really look like much else. They all kept some degree of chest design, but everything else changed around the chest, and it made for 3 distinct but cool Primes.

RiD2001: I am not aware as to how standard his fire truck alt mode is internationally, but him as a firetruck was a nice fresh change. Which also produced a pretty unique robot mode.

Armada: a stylized long-nose was a cool look, and he kept the grill on the torso though lost the windows, so a departure, but I would argue Armada Prime might be one of the more fun Primes for this, and his long nose truck mode helped add more muscle to him.

Energon: cab over with trailer, pretty close to G1, but had extra gimmicks to help make him more special, especially with his stylized trailer and drones. And also the fact that he was a chunky lad.

Cybertron: take my RiD2001, Armada, and Energon comments, combine them, you got this guy.

Animated: extremely stylized and distinct. He really can't compare to anyone else.

Movie 1-3: pretty standard truck base, but the paint scheme helped set him apart from pretty much all other Primes.

Movie 4-5: completely unique truck that gave us a very unique robot.

Bee movie/RotB: Steampunk G1 (of a sorts) and RotB adds the push bar and such, adds muscle to him.

Prime: similar to movie 1-3 but without the paint. Though it also had the curvy sleeper section, which is somewhat common, but for a Prime it is unique. Beast hunters was utterly unique once again.

RiD2015: full on truck and trailer in corporated, and very angular too

Cyberverse: G1-y, but curvy, in an era where flat-nosed trucks have almost disappeared.

Earthspark: long-nose but more pug-nosed, which itself is a rare look for a truck.

So overall, Prime's alt modes almost all have some way to stand out from the rest in the era they are in. I would argue G1 Prime, Maybe RiD2001 and Laser Prime, and Prime Prime's first body are the only ones that actually sort of blend into their respective time frames, but even then Laser and RiD2001 are unique enough from most other Primes to still have some degree of differentiality.

And in terms of alt modes, Cyberverse is basically a perfect modern reimagining of G1 Prime's robot and alt mode, and that worked for that show. Earthspark for instance re-invented that while keeping him the same colors, the same robot mode components in the same spots, but still being a fresh reimagination.

That is what is needed.

D-Maximal_Primal wrote:

RodimusPrimeUkraine1 wrote:But what is so special about Optimus if he looks like literally every other truck out there?

Who said his truck mode had to be extremely special too? I'd even argue that the more he looks like normal trucks, the better his disguise.

Besides that, let's think about Prime and his alt mode through the years:

G1: cab-overs were very standard back then, so in actuality, G1 Prime at the time was a boring truck only accented by transforming and being 2 colors separated by halves of the truck mode.

G2: cab-over was the same. His Laser body proceeded to start to update his alt mode to the times as that is when the long nose trucks started really taking over (tanker trailer was a bit more unique though), and his Hero body was a pretty special alt, it didn't really look like much else. They all kept some degree of chest design, but everything else changed around the chest, and it made for 3 distinct but cool Primes.

RiD2001: I am not aware as to how standard his fire truck alt mode is internationally, but him as a firetruck was a nice fresh change. Which also produced a pretty unique robot mode.

Armada: a stylized long-nose was a cool look, and he kept the grill on the torso though lost the windows, so a departure, but I would argue Armada Prime might be one of the more fun Primes for this, and his long nose truck mode helped add more muscle to him.

Energon: cab over with trailer, pretty close to G1, but had extra gimmicks to help make him more special, especially with his stylized trailer and drones. And also the fact that he was a chunky lad.

Cybertron: take my RiD2001, Armada, and Energon comments, combine them, you got this guy.

Animated: extremely stylized and distinct. He really can't compare to anyone else.

Movie 1-3: pretty standard truck base, but the paint scheme helped set him apart from pretty much all other Primes.

Movie 4-5: completely unique truck that gave us a very unique robot.

Bee movie/RotB: Steampunk G1 (of a sorts) and RotB adds the push bar and such, adds muscle to him.

Prime: similar to movie 1-3 but without the paint. Though it also had the curvy sleeper section, which is somewhat common, but for a Prime it is unique. Beast hunters was utterly unique once again.

RiD2015: full on truck and trailer in corporated, and very angular too

Cyberverse: G1-y, but curvy, in an era where flat-nosed trucks have almost disappeared.

Earthspark: long-nose but more pug-nosed, which itself is a rare look for a truck.

So overall, Prime's alt modes almost all have some way to stand out from the rest in the era they are in. I would argue G1 Prime, Maybe RiD2001 and Laser Prime, and Prime Prime's first body are the only ones that actually sort of blend into their respective time frames, but even then Laser and RiD2001 are unique enough from most other Primes to still have some degree of differentiality.

And in terms of alt modes, Cyberverse is basically a perfect modern reimagining of G1 Prime's robot and alt mode, and that worked for that show. Earthspark for instance re-invented that while keeping him the same colors, the same robot mode components in the same spots, but still being a fresh reimagination.

That is what is needed.

Thanks D-Max! You put it better then I did