"Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review
Tuesday, April 20th, 2010 7:31AM CDT
Categories: Comic Book News, ReviewsPosted by: Tigertrack Views: 73,804
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“The evaluation is self-evident: one of their lives is not worth one of ours. That’s what the math dictates.”
Let me get this off my chest first and foremost. I am a Prowl S-L-A-P-P-Y. He was one of the first toys I owned as a child. From the TV show, he was also not everybody’s favorite robot, but he did see plenty of screen time, so I felt comfortable having him as a favorite that nobody else did. Man did I hate seeing him go down like he did in the movie.
In the Marvel comics, he was forgettable until the final issues of the series (“An 80- issue miniseries!”), mostly because in the span of the first 10 issues, he and a band of other Autobots were put down for the count early on by Shockwave, and then put into storage until they could be repaired. When Grimlock found the nucleon and repaired all the wrecked Autobots (wikitron fan fact- causing them to no longer have alt modes), Prowl came back to lead the Autobots as Bludegon led the Decepticons...and of course, Prowl led the Autobots into a Decepticon trap that just about destroyed them. Can’t catch a break. Grimlock dispised him as a weak leader as well.
So, I think you get the picture. Prowl’s claims to fame have been...
-right hand robot to the leader
-tactician/strategist
-unfeeling, logic driven cad
-incompetent leader and soldier
-overall ‘party pooper’ of the Autobots
He did have a shining moment, at least in this Prowl fan’s eyes.
The episode Roll For It in Season 1 was the closest we’ve seen to an independent Prowl who does more than think, or act as a ‘yes man’ to authority. Unfortunately, he needed Chip Chase’s help to be this remarkable a warrior.
The TakaraTomy Binaltech fiction saw the reemergence of Prowl as a character, but again, needing Chip Chase as his more human side.
Prowl has been in every re-imagining of Generation One continuity you can name. His importance, as already stated, has never really gone past that of strategist relying on facts. As you can imagine, when the Transformers Spotlight Prowl was announced I was really excited ('Starscream fangirl' excited, no, excited, yes) that we might get something more about this underrated character.
Artwork:
The return of E.J. Su. Through the hazy mists who is it that we see reappear to light our darkest hour? None other than Transformers artist E.J. Su, back at work with IDW drawing Transformers.
“Hi, I’m EJ Su, you may remember me from such previous Transformers stories as Transformers: Infiltration, the hiding, and Transformers: Escalation, the slow build.”
Oh, and remember when we didn’t like E.J’s new designs on our 'Precious'? Many of us would love to see him come back and give Transformers Ongoing pencils a go.
His art does create a familiar, happy feeling to return to though. E.J. calls upon his ‘-tion’ style mostly, and brings us simpler, blockier designs based on each character’s Classics and Universe toy (for those that had one).
The work is gritty, and energetic, and yet, it fits like an old glove. Textures are handled, but not in an overly complex way. The inks and colors work well with the pencils to create an effect that many of us have missed in our Transformers comics lately.
"AWESOME!"
What I really like though are the uses of the large, dark, shadow spots. They work well, and as a style, allow the artist to use less detail, and think more about the inter-workings of the negative and positive spaces these dark shadows cause. It also allows for more attention to be brought to the parts that are bright, which are usually the most important to helping us see the story.
I am sure that the art is going to cause some wincing among fans, but I find it refreshing, nostalgic, and interesting to look at. It has a certain Mike Mignola Hellboy feel to it (with less hell, more boy) that works well with Transformers.
Plot/Writing:
Since All Hail Megatron Coda #15, Prowl has been left out of things. We’ve seen him helping Rodimus Prime’s bunch trying to get off of Earth in the Transformers Ongoing series (wikitron Fan Fact: Prowl got captured by humans as he was baited into trying to save Breakdown then **edit** rescued, in the battle for his rescue, Ironhide was lost). We’ve seen him pulling some strings as a high ranking Autobot leader to get certain people into certain places (See Spotlights Kup, and Ultra Magnus, and Last Stand of the Wreckers #4).
All this has led us to think is that Prowl is pretty much the Autobot equivalent of Shockwave, albeit less powerful of a fighter. Always calculating the math, and making decisions based on logic and numbers, never using instincts, or feeling to make his decisions. Prowl supports the Autobot cause to no end, and really does not question authority, as long as logic, and the numbers, support it.
This 'attempting to save Breakdown' incident in TF Ongoing #1 was a step in a new direction for Prowl. For those who may have thought, ‘What the hell?’ when Prowl made that somewhat uncharacteristic move, you’re about to be enlightened. This story tells the tale of Prowl between All Hail Megatron, and Transformers Ongoing #1. It gives us insights into the character that we perhaps have not given much thought to, or thought that the writers had given much thought to either.
This spotlight also helps fill in some pieces (like AHM Coda did), it is a fairly necessary read for anyone trying to make sense of the continuity that IDW is placing together.
For fans of Generation One characters that transform into police cars that are not named Streetwise, Siren, or Stakeout, this is written for you, as well.
Finally, Prowl fans can feel good that their guy is not just a logic driven, uncaring, strategist. We saw some passion in the Marvel series, and on the old cartoon, but until now, have really only seen him giving, and receiving orders.
In this issue Prowl has some intense inner dialogue where he is calculating the effectiveness of what they are doing on Earth, making suggestions, and feeling the command structure fall to pieces around him. He is caught up between his emotions and the logic, and this is what drives the story.
And then we see the heart in the tin man...
The entirety of the issue is either Prowl ‘debating’ with himself, self-narrating the story, or dialogue where he interacts with others. It fits very well. It is well written, and Mike Costa deserves praise for this issue's success because he is sure getting enough people contesting his writing/pacing in Transformers Ongoing.
This issue allows us to get into Prowl’s head, and heart, and finally feel he’s...something.
Long time coming, long overdue, and well executed. Prowl fan happy. Enjoy.
Check out the 5-page Prowl preview here, the issue hits your local comic shop somewhere near tomorrow.
Credit(s): IDW Publishing
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Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1066180)
Posted by RiddlerJ on April 20th, 2010 @ 8:02am CDT
Posted by RiddlerJ on April 20th, 2010 @ 8:02am CDT
Yeah I have to admit. I wasn't thrilled with how Furman wrote Prowl in those Marvel issues. It seems like his whole purpose was to make Grimlock look badass by comparison.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1066185)
Posted by Darth Bombshell on April 20th, 2010 @ 8:28am CDT
Posted by Darth Bombshell on April 20th, 2010 @ 8:28am CDT
No matter how much this thing explains Prowl's actions in Ongoing #1, I will always have a problem with the concept of this issue. Everyone knows about cause and effect, where we do something and the effect of our actions is immediately apparent. It's been obvious over the past two years that IDW has operated on the effect and cause principle, where they present the effect of the action, then show us the action later on only if they feel like it (or are prodded by the overly obsessive fanbase.)
The most obvious example of this was AHM Coda, which came into existence not because of IDW's over hyped "success of AHM" lie, but because enough fans griped about the inconsistencies in the story to what came before. This is the next best example. This issue exists solely because too many fans griped about Prowl's OOC actions in the first issue of the ongoing, so here we get the explanation.
I really need to break my addiction to TF comics. If this is the sort of thing they're going to be putting out there, it's simply not worth my cash every month.
The most obvious example of this was AHM Coda, which came into existence not because of IDW's over hyped "success of AHM" lie, but because enough fans griped about the inconsistencies in the story to what came before. This is the next best example. This issue exists solely because too many fans griped about Prowl's OOC actions in the first issue of the ongoing, so here we get the explanation.
I really need to break my addiction to TF comics. If this is the sort of thing they're going to be putting out there, it's simply not worth my cash every month.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1066187)
Posted by Tigertrack on April 20th, 2010 @ 8:33am CDT
Very true, but it is a style of writing to leave mysteries, plot holes, and so forth, and have them revealed later.
No matter how much they will never be 'my' version of TF comics, I still enjoy reading them. This enlightening into Prowl's change in thinking and logic only dictation of action creates a new angle to the character that we can enjoy.
Posted by Tigertrack on April 20th, 2010 @ 8:33am CDT
Darth Bombshell wrote:No matter how much this thing explains Prowl's actions in Ongoing #1, I will always have a problem with the concept of this issue. Everyone knows about cause and effect, where we do something and the effect of our actions is immediately apparent. It's been obvious over the past two years that IDW has operated on the effect and cause principle, where they present the effect of the action, then show us the action later on only if they feel like it (or are prodded by the overly obsessive fanbase.)
The most obvious example of this was AHM Coda, which came into existence not because of IDW's over hyped "success of AHM" lie, but because enough fans griped about the inconsistencies in the story to what came before. This is the next best example. This issue exists solely because too many fans griped about Prowl's OOC actions in the first issue of the ongoing, so here we get the explanation.
I really need to break my addiction to TF comics. If this is the sort of thing they're going to be putting out there, it's simply not worth my cash every month.
Very true, but it is a style of writing to leave mysteries, plot holes, and so forth, and have them revealed later.
No matter how much they will never be 'my' version of TF comics, I still enjoy reading them. This enlightening into Prowl's change in thinking and logic only dictation of action creates a new angle to the character that we can enjoy.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1066190)
Posted by Darth Bombshell on April 20th, 2010 @ 8:42am CDT
Yes, but it does so by intentionally hiding the reason behind the mysteries and brazenly ignoring the plot holes, thinking their readers are ignorant enough not to notice them.
Posted by Darth Bombshell on April 20th, 2010 @ 8:42am CDT
tigertracks 24 wrote:Very true, but it is a style of writing to leave mysteries, plot holes, and so forth, and have them revealed later.
Yes, but it does so by intentionally hiding the reason behind the mysteries and brazenly ignoring the plot holes, thinking their readers are ignorant enough not to notice them.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1066196)
Posted by Jeysie on April 20th, 2010 @ 8:57am CDT
Yeah, the way most of IDW's recent stuff has been structured plot-wise is just an amateurish mistake they're trying to pass off as a good way to write, IMHO. There's a fair bit of "How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy" by Card that does a good job of explaining right and wrong ways to handle exposition and mysteries, and why they're "right" and "wrong".
But honestly, I think one only has to contrast with Wreckers here, which gets it oh so right. Instead of artificially holding back information and leaving the audience in the dark compared to the characters, and showing cause after effect, it structures the story so that we always have an amount of information that feels natural to what's going on, yet is just enough to set things up, while holding back just that one last bit of information that makes it all click. When we finally get the reveal, instead of looking back and going "Buh? Where did that come from?" we can actually see how it fits. And yet it wasn't really guessable until the reveal, even with all of the info we had.
It'll remain to be seen if they 100% pull it all off in the end, but it's been well-crafted so far.
But when it comes to the ongoing... well. I guess I can understand why they handle exposition in such a backwards way; because it takes real writing skill to do it the proper way, and while Costa's better than McCarthy, he still hasn't shown signs of real major skill yet, IMHO. (Especially not with the reveals in Ongoing #5, which swung between idiot plot and "Who didn't see that coming a mile away?")
And... this review and the others I've seen don't fill me with any more confidence. Sorry, but I liked the fact that Prowl was a logic-driven strategist who not only didn't let his emotions control him, but as shown in AHM #15, knows how to control other people's emotions. I don't "need" him to be passionate or any such nonsense. I'm kind of tired of the whole "emotions are better than logic" plotline, and if this turns out to be yet another one I'll be really disappointed.
Posted by Jeysie on April 20th, 2010 @ 8:57am CDT
Darth Bombshell wrote:Yes, but it does so by intentionally hiding the reason behind the mysteries and brazenly ignoring the plot holes, thinking their readers are ignorant enough not to notice them.
Yeah, the way most of IDW's recent stuff has been structured plot-wise is just an amateurish mistake they're trying to pass off as a good way to write, IMHO. There's a fair bit of "How to Write Science Fiction and Fantasy" by Card that does a good job of explaining right and wrong ways to handle exposition and mysteries, and why they're "right" and "wrong".
But honestly, I think one only has to contrast with Wreckers here, which gets it oh so right. Instead of artificially holding back information and leaving the audience in the dark compared to the characters, and showing cause after effect, it structures the story so that we always have an amount of information that feels natural to what's going on, yet is just enough to set things up, while holding back just that one last bit of information that makes it all click. When we finally get the reveal, instead of looking back and going "Buh? Where did that come from?" we can actually see how it fits. And yet it wasn't really guessable until the reveal, even with all of the info we had.
It'll remain to be seen if they 100% pull it all off in the end, but it's been well-crafted so far.
But when it comes to the ongoing... well. I guess I can understand why they handle exposition in such a backwards way; because it takes real writing skill to do it the proper way, and while Costa's better than McCarthy, he still hasn't shown signs of real major skill yet, IMHO. (Especially not with the reveals in Ongoing #5, which swung between idiot plot and "Who didn't see that coming a mile away?")
And... this review and the others I've seen don't fill me with any more confidence. Sorry, but I liked the fact that Prowl was a logic-driven strategist who not only didn't let his emotions control him, but as shown in AHM #15, knows how to control other people's emotions. I don't "need" him to be passionate or any such nonsense. I'm kind of tired of the whole "emotions are better than logic" plotline, and if this turns out to be yet another one I'll be really disappointed.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1066197)
Posted by Tigertrack on April 20th, 2010 @ 9:03am CDT
He's not Decepticon. There comes a point where logic cannot dictate over right. This is what he works through the issue trying to see for himself.
Posted by Tigertrack on April 20th, 2010 @ 9:03am CDT
Jeysie wrote:And... this review and the others I've seen don't fill me with any more confidence. Sorry, but I liked the fact that Prowl was a logic-driven strategist who not only didn't let his emotions control him, but as shown in AHM #15, knows how to control other people's emotions. I don't "need" him to be passionate or any such nonsense. I'm kind of tired of the whole "emotions are better than logic" plotline, and if this turns out to be yet another one I'll be really disappointed.
He's not Decepticon. There comes a point where logic cannot dictate over right. This is what he works through the issue trying to see for himself.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1066200)
Posted by Jeysie on April 20th, 2010 @ 9:14am CDT
What does logic have to do with being evil or "wrong"? That's why I'm so tired of the "emotions are better than logic" attitude, because it stems from that "logic is evil/bad, emotions are right/good" fallacy.
You can be logical and good perfectly fine, if you accept that being good doesn't always require being nice, and that sometimes you have to compromise for the greater good. I'm just waiting for the storytellers to figure this out and stop giving us the "You have to be emotional to be a good guy" nonsense.
Roche showed signs of having it figured out the right way, but judging by the review and your response here, Costa won't, and this is going to be yet another frustrating take on it.
(Talking as someone who manages to be logical, unsentimental, and a good person just fine, and would be far more effective if her passionate side didn't get in the way and cloud her thinking at times...)
Posted by Jeysie on April 20th, 2010 @ 9:14am CDT
tigertracks 24 wrote:He's not Decepticon. There comes a point where logic cannot dictate over right. This is what he works through the issue trying to see for himself.
What does logic have to do with being evil or "wrong"? That's why I'm so tired of the "emotions are better than logic" attitude, because it stems from that "logic is evil/bad, emotions are right/good" fallacy.
You can be logical and good perfectly fine, if you accept that being good doesn't always require being nice, and that sometimes you have to compromise for the greater good. I'm just waiting for the storytellers to figure this out and stop giving us the "You have to be emotional to be a good guy" nonsense.
Roche showed signs of having it figured out the right way, but judging by the review and your response here, Costa won't, and this is going to be yet another frustrating take on it.
(Talking as someone who manages to be logical, unsentimental, and a good person just fine, and would be far more effective if her passionate side didn't get in the way and cloud her thinking at times...)
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1066207)
Posted by Tigertrack on April 20th, 2010 @ 9:32am CDT
Posted by Tigertrack on April 20th, 2010 @ 9:32am CDT
Logical- Not putting yourself in the way of harm
Illogical- saving someone when putting yourself in harm's way.
Wrong- not helping a child to escape a burning building even at the risk of your own life/health.
Right- Helping the innocent to survive at the cost of yourself if need be.
Contradictions? Sure. But that's part of why Prowl is on the side of the Autobots. What they value and believe is right, but the steps they take are not always logical.
A character can show that they are more than a computer analyzing data without spouting words of emotion. That's what I wanted to see from 'my' Prowl, a bot who is not another computer (tool to measure outcomes based on math), but an able being with an awesome ability to analyze and use the math and logic to make choices involving strategy, but still be able to make the 'right' choice when logic/math may dictate you should do otherwise.
Illogical- saving someone when putting yourself in harm's way.
Wrong- not helping a child to escape a burning building even at the risk of your own life/health.
Right- Helping the innocent to survive at the cost of yourself if need be.
Contradictions? Sure. But that's part of why Prowl is on the side of the Autobots. What they value and believe is right, but the steps they take are not always logical.
A character can show that they are more than a computer analyzing data without spouting words of emotion. That's what I wanted to see from 'my' Prowl, a bot who is not another computer (tool to measure outcomes based on math), but an able being with an awesome ability to analyze and use the math and logic to make choices involving strategy, but still be able to make the 'right' choice when logic/math may dictate you should do otherwise.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1066217)
Posted by Jeysie on April 20th, 2010 @ 10:11am CDT
Logical: Putting yourself in the way of harm when you're the best person available for the task, and there's a realistic chance that you'll succeed and/or that any loss you incur will cause less damage than simply letting the mission fail.
Illogical: Risking your life when the chance of success is impossibly slim and losing yourself in addition to failing the mission will cause greater damage than just the mission failing.
Logic isn't about being selfish, or always avoiding risk. It's about knowing what resources are best used where, and managing risk. Sometimes that does in fact mean sacrifices--even self-sacrifice, or doing things that aren't 100% certain. Again, fallacies in understanding.
The thing is, the Autobots have a bad tendency to leap before they look, and let their emotions get in the way of doing things that cause much more damage in the long run despite being feel-good in the short run. And Roche's AHM #15 gets Prowl spot-on by having him spend the whole time ruminating on why and how this is hurting the Autobots, and what he can do about it.
Someone successfully using logic as a means to achieve good ends should always reach a conclusion of action that will achieve the greater good. It may not always be the bleeding-heart notion of doing good, of course, which is where you get your fallacy from.
But writers have a hard time handling a notion of good that doesn't involve blindly doing the "right thing" even if it actually causes greater damage in the long run. They either never have logical good guys, or they structure the story so that, even if the logical person's idea is completely sound and the bleeding-heart thing seems like it'll do a lot of damage, the emotional people get incredibly lucky and "show up" logic by having their emotional thing work.
Like I said, it's a tiresome and frustrating plot device. That's why I loved Roche's take: It seemed like there was a chance the logical person would be right just once, without having to "show their emotional side".
Posted by Jeysie on April 20th, 2010 @ 10:11am CDT
tigertracks 24 wrote:Logical- Not putting yourself in the way of harm
Illogical- saving someone when putting yourself in harm's way.
Logical: Putting yourself in the way of harm when you're the best person available for the task, and there's a realistic chance that you'll succeed and/or that any loss you incur will cause less damage than simply letting the mission fail.
Illogical: Risking your life when the chance of success is impossibly slim and losing yourself in addition to failing the mission will cause greater damage than just the mission failing.
Logic isn't about being selfish, or always avoiding risk. It's about knowing what resources are best used where, and managing risk. Sometimes that does in fact mean sacrifices--even self-sacrifice, or doing things that aren't 100% certain. Again, fallacies in understanding.
tigertracks 24 wrote:Contradictions? Sure. But that's part of why Prowl is on the side of the Autobots. What they value and believe is right, but the steps they take are not always logical.
The thing is, the Autobots have a bad tendency to leap before they look, and let their emotions get in the way of doing things that cause much more damage in the long run despite being feel-good in the short run. And Roche's AHM #15 gets Prowl spot-on by having him spend the whole time ruminating on why and how this is hurting the Autobots, and what he can do about it.
tigertracks 24 wrote:but still be able to make the 'right' choice when logic/math may dictate you should do otherwise.
Someone successfully using logic as a means to achieve good ends should always reach a conclusion of action that will achieve the greater good. It may not always be the bleeding-heart notion of doing good, of course, which is where you get your fallacy from.
But writers have a hard time handling a notion of good that doesn't involve blindly doing the "right thing" even if it actually causes greater damage in the long run. They either never have logical good guys, or they structure the story so that, even if the logical person's idea is completely sound and the bleeding-heart thing seems like it'll do a lot of damage, the emotional people get incredibly lucky and "show up" logic by having their emotional thing work.
Like I said, it's a tiresome and frustrating plot device. That's why I loved Roche's take: It seemed like there was a chance the logical person would be right just once, without having to "show their emotional side".
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1066220)
Posted by Oilspill on April 20th, 2010 @ 10:26am CDT
Posted by Oilspill on April 20th, 2010 @ 10:26am CDT
Good review TT. Nothing spoiled yet I now have an idea of what I'm in for. And it makes me want to grab a copy and read it.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1066243)
Posted by Dead Metal on April 20th, 2010 @ 12:40pm CDT
Posted by Dead Metal on April 20th, 2010 @ 12:40pm CDT
How can you see that the whole reason given for the existence of this comic is nothing but bull-sh*t?
Well lets see it this way:
AHM:Coda had Prowl change his character from the way he was portrait before, making him a manipulative b@st@rd (as far as I was informed), so why would they willingly change his character yet again, just one issue after they changed him?
It's just proof for what I've been thinking since AHM#4 idw doesn't give a rats ass for their continuity and think their readers are stupid beyond belief.
Well lets see it this way:
AHM:Coda had Prowl change his character from the way he was portrait before, making him a manipulative b@st@rd (as far as I was informed), so why would they willingly change his character yet again, just one issue after they changed him?
It's just proof for what I've been thinking since AHM#4 idw doesn't give a rats ass for their continuity and think their readers are stupid beyond belief.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1066255)
Posted by Prowl1529 on April 20th, 2010 @ 1:10pm CDT
Posted by Prowl1529 on April 20th, 2010 @ 1:10pm CDT
Prowl is my favourite Transformer ever. He is no incompetent leader he simple dosen't like to lead he prefers to be the rigth hand "man" of Optimus Prime or any other on the leadership, in that i think he is the best.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1066256)
Posted by Tigertrack on April 20th, 2010 @ 1:11pm CDT
Indeed he is best as the right-hand man, but all of his attempts at being 'the' leader have had less than desirable results, for the most part.
Posted by Tigertrack on April 20th, 2010 @ 1:11pm CDT
Prowl1529 wrote:Prowl is my favourite Transformer ever. He is no incompetent leader he simple dosen't like to lead he prefers to be the rigth hand "man" of Optimus Prime or any other on the leadership, in that i think he is the best.
Indeed he is best as the right-hand man, but all of his attempts at being 'the' leader have had less than desirable results, for the most part.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1066297)
Posted by RK_Striker_JK_5 on April 20th, 2010 @ 2:50pm CDT
Gotten it in one. IDW's AHM fiasco has permanently soured me on their product. They don't give a damn about continuity or logical progression of story arcs. Their attempts to fill in gaps or do retcons have been made of suck.
Posted by RK_Striker_JK_5 on April 20th, 2010 @ 2:50pm CDT
Dead Metal wrote:How can you see that the whole reason given for the existence of this comic is nothing but bull-sh*t?
Well lets see it this way:
AHM:Coda had Prowl change his character from the way he was portrait before, making him a manipulative b@st@rd (as far as I was informed), so why would they willingly change his character yet again, just one issue after they changed him?
It's just proof for what I've been thinking since AHM#4 idw doesn't give a rats ass for their continuity and think their readers are stupid beyond belief.
Gotten it in one. IDW's AHM fiasco has permanently soured me on their product. They don't give a damn about continuity or logical progression of story arcs. Their attempts to fill in gaps or do retcons have been made of suck.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1066307)
Posted by Windsweeper on April 20th, 2010 @ 3:08pm CDT
Posted by Windsweeper on April 20th, 2010 @ 3:08pm CDT
Peronally, I think Prowl should be written like Star Trek's Data. I did like Roche's interpretation of him. I also liked his Dreamwave incarnation and Budiansky's version. Especially liked it when Shockwave had Prime's head and Prowl was in command of the Autobots.
This review has piqued my interest but IDW never drew me in the same way Marvel and Dreamwave did.
This review has piqued my interest but IDW never drew me in the same way Marvel and Dreamwave did.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1066442)
Posted by JazZeke on April 20th, 2010 @ 11:38pm CDT
Ah, no. No, that wasn't what happened. Prowl was rescued by Hot Rod, and during that mission Ironhide was killed. Optimus got emo and surrendered himself supposedly out of guilt.
Since when does logic equal evil? In AHM Coda, he was still fighting for the greater good, but using sneakier, morally questionable tactics, while going on about how brash actions do more harm than good. Costa has devolved him into one of those brash, bleeding heart "hero" types that are already a dime a dozen in the Autobot ranks.
Posted by JazZeke on April 20th, 2010 @ 11:38pm CDT
tigertracks 24 wrote:(wikitron Fan Fact: Prowl got captured by humans as he was baited into trying to save Breakdown then released in exchange for Optimus Prime’s surrender)
Ah, no. No, that wasn't what happened. Prowl was rescued by Hot Rod, and during that mission Ironhide was killed. Optimus got emo and surrendered himself supposedly out of guilt.
He's not Decepticon. There comes a point where logic cannot dictate over right. This is what he works through the issue trying to see for himself.
Since when does logic equal evil? In AHM Coda, he was still fighting for the greater good, but using sneakier, morally questionable tactics, while going on about how brash actions do more harm than good. Costa has devolved him into one of those brash, bleeding heart "hero" types that are already a dime a dozen in the Autobot ranks.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1066503)
Posted by Tigertrack on April 21st, 2010 @ 7:08am CDT
Logic does not equal evil. When logic empowers you to make choices whose consequences you know, and choose have 'evil' results it does, like any such quality, or ability.
I will edit my entry accordingly based on your fact check. Thanks for keeping me straight.
Posted by Tigertrack on April 21st, 2010 @ 7:08am CDT
JazZeke wrote:tigertracks 24 wrote:(wikitron Fan Fact: Prowl got captured by humans as he was baited into trying to save Breakdown then released in exchange for Optimus Prime’s surrender)
Ah, no. No, that wasn't what happened. Prowl was rescued by Hot Rod, and during that mission Ironhide was killed. Optimus got emo and surrendered himself supposedly out of guilt.He's not Decepticon. There comes a point where logic cannot dictate over right. This is what he works through the issue trying to see for himself.
Since when does logic equal evil? In AHM Coda, he was still fighting for the greater good, but using sneakier, morally questionable tactics, while going on about how brash actions do more harm than good. Costa has devolved him into one of those brash, bleeding heart "hero" types that are already a dime a dozen in the Autobot ranks.
Logic does not equal evil. When logic empowers you to make choices whose consequences you know, and choose have 'evil' results it does, like any such quality, or ability.
I will edit my entry accordingly based on your fact check. Thanks for keeping me straight.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1066520)
Posted by Jeysie on April 21st, 2010 @ 8:48am CDT
Except that Prowl so far has done nothing that he expects to have evil results.
Was what he did to Kup morally questionable? Yes. But he did it aiming to have good results--namely, getting the Autobots to listen to him enough to start acting like a well-polished team instead of going off half-cocked. There is nothing Decepticon in Prowl's motivations--his aim has always and ever been to do what will net the Autobots the most gain for the least casualties. Sometimes that means you don't get to be pure and lily-white, but that's a far, far cry from being evil or Decepticon.
I think Prowl will eventually learn there's lines that shouldn't be crossed--or at least feel more remorse about crossing them--but that doesn't mean turning him into a bleeding-heart. He should always be the character willing to do what's practical for the greater good, even if sometimes it's not "pure", because you need at least one person like that in a non-fluffy world where you don't always get to do the "pure" thing.
Posted by Jeysie on April 21st, 2010 @ 8:48am CDT
tigertracks 24 wrote:Logic does not equal evil. When logic empowers you to make choices whose consequences you know, and choose have 'evil' results it does, like any such quality, or ability.
Except that Prowl so far has done nothing that he expects to have evil results.
Was what he did to Kup morally questionable? Yes. But he did it aiming to have good results--namely, getting the Autobots to listen to him enough to start acting like a well-polished team instead of going off half-cocked. There is nothing Decepticon in Prowl's motivations--his aim has always and ever been to do what will net the Autobots the most gain for the least casualties. Sometimes that means you don't get to be pure and lily-white, but that's a far, far cry from being evil or Decepticon.
I think Prowl will eventually learn there's lines that shouldn't be crossed--or at least feel more remorse about crossing them--but that doesn't mean turning him into a bleeding-heart. He should always be the character willing to do what's practical for the greater good, even if sometimes it's not "pure", because you need at least one person like that in a non-fluffy world where you don't always get to do the "pure" thing.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1066538)
Posted by Tigertrack on April 21st, 2010 @ 9:54am CDT
And I agree. Not everything has to be fluffy finish, nor straight forward right or wrong. I agree good guys can make choices that cross lines of morality, that may cost them what others are not willing to give (ie- friendship, trust whatever, if Kupp ever finds out), but I also feel that they should be able to grow to see things differently, to find logic in a perspective that they found illogical before based on new information.
I don't want flower picking patsy Autobots. I want characters to evolve make choices, and be used for more than just the background, or to give orders. Let us know a little more about, how or why, they act, or make choices that they do.
I really look forward to your thoughts POST reading this issue, and of course, Wreckers.
Posted by Tigertrack on April 21st, 2010 @ 9:54am CDT
Jeysie wrote:tigertracks 24 wrote:Logic does not equal evil. When logic empowers you to make choices whose consequences you know, and choose have 'evil' results it does, like any such quality, or ability.
Except that Prowl so far has done nothing that he expects to have evil results.
Was what he did to Kup morally questionable? Yes. But he did it aiming to have good results--namely, getting the Autobots to listen to him enough to start acting like a well-polished team instead of going off half-cocked. There is nothing Decepticon in Prowl's motivations--his aim has always and ever been to do what will net the Autobots the most gain for the least casualties. Sometimes that means you don't get to be pure and lily-white, but that's a far, far cry from being evil or Decepticon.
I think Prowl will eventually learn there's lines that shouldn't be crossed--or at least feel more remorse about crossing them--but that doesn't mean turning him into a bleeding-heart. He should always be the character willing to do what's practical for the greater good, even if sometimes it's not "pure", because you need at least one person like that in a non-fluffy world where you don't always get to do the "pure" thing.
And I agree. Not everything has to be fluffy finish, nor straight forward right or wrong. I agree good guys can make choices that cross lines of morality, that may cost them what others are not willing to give (ie- friendship, trust whatever, if Kupp ever finds out), but I also feel that they should be able to grow to see things differently, to find logic in a perspective that they found illogical before based on new information.
I don't want flower picking patsy Autobots. I want characters to evolve make choices, and be used for more than just the background, or to give orders. Let us know a little more about, how or why, they act, or make choices that they do.
I really look forward to your thoughts POST reading this issue, and of course, Wreckers.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1066547)
Posted by Jeysie on April 21st, 2010 @ 10:24am CDT
Posted by Jeysie on April 21st, 2010 @ 10:24am CDT
Well, now I'm just confused, as your comments here and in the other thread seem to be completely opposite from what you've been saying so far. So... *shrug*
And I'll give them. Hopefully it doesn't take me a blasted week to get a copy from IDW's store like it took me last month to get Wreckers #3.
tigertracks 24 wrote:I really look forward to your thoughts POST reading this issue, and of course, Wreckers.
And I'll give them. Hopefully it doesn't take me a blasted week to get a copy from IDW's store like it took me last month to get Wreckers #3.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1066807)
Posted by lowman_x on April 22nd, 2010 @ 6:12am CDT
Posted by lowman_x on April 22nd, 2010 @ 6:12am CDT
Just read Spotlight: Prowl.
I, for one, really liked it. Prowl has never been a character I have had much interest in but this issue was well-written and even better drawn. I can see the logical steps he has taken over the last several years (story-wise) to where he would actually break cover to help a fellow Cybertronian (Breakdown).
He is transforming.
This story may be a retcon or it may be something that IDW have had in the works for a while but either way I thouhgt it was a great read both narratively and visually.
I, for one, really liked it. Prowl has never been a character I have had much interest in but this issue was well-written and even better drawn. I can see the logical steps he has taken over the last several years (story-wise) to where he would actually break cover to help a fellow Cybertronian (Breakdown).
He is transforming.
This story may be a retcon or it may be something that IDW have had in the works for a while but either way I thouhgt it was a great read both narratively and visually.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1067023)
Posted by Mkall on April 22nd, 2010 @ 5:11pm CDT
Posted by Mkall on April 22nd, 2010 @ 5:11pm CDT
I didn't realize how much I missed the one-off Spotlight series. I hope to read more of them in the future.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1067392)
Posted by Jeysie on April 23rd, 2010 @ 2:59pm CDT
Having read this finally...
Oh, hey, look what kind of story we got here! The same old frustrating type of crap that writers always do and I'm sick of. Almost exactly to the letter.
I always hated the fact that Prowl tended to get marginalized as the logical, practical person that nobody ever listens to because the Plot Luck means that the illogical, reckless plan of action turns out to always be the correct one, so the logical guy just ends up coming off as whiny and ineffectual. Even -ations Prowl came off as a blind stick-in-the-mud sometimes.
Then we finally get a story from Roche that gives us a Prowl who's logical and cold and actually is right, to the point where his advice being ignored has, yes, actually hurt the Autobots. And the fact that he chooses morally questionable methods to get people to listen to him for their own good had so much interesting potential to cover. Finally we could understand why Prowl is high-up in command even though he rubs everyone the wrong way. But now we're back to the guy who has to give in and be impulsive and emotional due to Plot Luck negating all of his logic, it seems.
What I would have liked to have seen here instead is a story where Prowl still refrains from doing the impulsive, illogical thing and turns out to be right in his judgment... yet for once actually feels remorse about it. As I think that is the real growth Prowl needed to undergo--not some silly "lesson" that he shouldn't be logical and practical all the time or should do impulsive illogical things just because they're "right", but the fact that he shouldn't be so cold-blooded in his feelings about having to sometimes compromise and do cold things. I loved the fact that, for a change, Prowl got to be as competent and shrewd as Shockwave; he just needed to develop that moral center while still doing it that makes him solidly an Autobot vs. Shockwave.
This story sure as hell isn't that. And I was kind of hoping that the thing with Kup might eventually lead to that sort of revelation, but I don't see it happening now either.
Well, at least the art was good. I really love Su's new style... the new designs manage to be more mechanical and alien, but without sacrificing being endearing and expressive.
The dialogue was good too... Costa at least is decent at the technical side of writing. I just wish that almost all of his ideas so far weren't so boring, cliche, and predictable.
(We won't even get into how this is another step in Prime's transformation from, in the -ations, being the only Optimus Prime I could respect as having a practical and hard-nosed counterbalance to his compassion, to being the same sort of Lawful Stupid idiot that every other Optimus Prime is and that I always want to smack upside the head.)
Posted by Jeysie on April 23rd, 2010 @ 2:59pm CDT
Jeysie wrote:But writers have a hard time handling a notion of good that doesn't involve blindly doing the "right thing" even if it actually causes greater damage in the long run. They either never have logical good guys, or they structure the story so that, even if the logical person's idea is completely sound and the bleeding-heart thing seems like it'll do a lot of damage, the emotional people get incredibly lucky and "show up" logic by having their emotional thing work.
Like I said, it's a tiresome and frustrating plot device. That's why I loved Roche's take: It seemed like there was a chance the logical person would be right just once, without having to "show their emotional side".
Having read this finally...
Oh, hey, look what kind of story we got here! The same old frustrating type of crap that writers always do and I'm sick of. Almost exactly to the letter.
I always hated the fact that Prowl tended to get marginalized as the logical, practical person that nobody ever listens to because the Plot Luck means that the illogical, reckless plan of action turns out to always be the correct one, so the logical guy just ends up coming off as whiny and ineffectual. Even -ations Prowl came off as a blind stick-in-the-mud sometimes.
Then we finally get a story from Roche that gives us a Prowl who's logical and cold and actually is right, to the point where his advice being ignored has, yes, actually hurt the Autobots. And the fact that he chooses morally questionable methods to get people to listen to him for their own good had so much interesting potential to cover. Finally we could understand why Prowl is high-up in command even though he rubs everyone the wrong way. But now we're back to the guy who has to give in and be impulsive and emotional due to Plot Luck negating all of his logic, it seems.
What I would have liked to have seen here instead is a story where Prowl still refrains from doing the impulsive, illogical thing and turns out to be right in his judgment... yet for once actually feels remorse about it. As I think that is the real growth Prowl needed to undergo--not some silly "lesson" that he shouldn't be logical and practical all the time or should do impulsive illogical things just because they're "right", but the fact that he shouldn't be so cold-blooded in his feelings about having to sometimes compromise and do cold things. I loved the fact that, for a change, Prowl got to be as competent and shrewd as Shockwave; he just needed to develop that moral center while still doing it that makes him solidly an Autobot vs. Shockwave.
This story sure as hell isn't that. And I was kind of hoping that the thing with Kup might eventually lead to that sort of revelation, but I don't see it happening now either.
Well, at least the art was good. I really love Su's new style... the new designs manage to be more mechanical and alien, but without sacrificing being endearing and expressive.
The dialogue was good too... Costa at least is decent at the technical side of writing. I just wish that almost all of his ideas so far weren't so boring, cliche, and predictable.
(We won't even get into how this is another step in Prime's transformation from, in the -ations, being the only Optimus Prime I could respect as having a practical and hard-nosed counterbalance to his compassion, to being the same sort of Lawful Stupid idiot that every other Optimus Prime is and that I always want to smack upside the head.)
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1067414)
Posted by sabrigami on April 23rd, 2010 @ 4:54pm CDT
That's exactly how I feel. After finally getting around to reading AHM 15, reading the spotlight today really ticked me off because they made Prowl just like everyone else. Man, I'm Becoming so spoiled now after LSoTW and Mr. Roche's other works. If only they would let him and James take the wheel.
Posted by sabrigami on April 23rd, 2010 @ 4:54pm CDT
Jeysie wrote:Jeysie wrote:But writers have a hard time handling a notion of good that doesn't involve blindly doing the "right thing" even if it actually causes greater damage in the long run. They either never have logical good guys, or they structure the story so that, even if the logical person's idea is completely sound and the bleeding-heart thing seems like it'll do a lot of damage, the emotional people get incredibly lucky and "show up" logic by having their emotional thing work.
Like I said, it's a tiresome and frustrating plot device. That's why I loved Roche's take: It seemed like there was a chance the logical person would be right just once, without having to "show their emotional side".
Having read this finally...
Oh, hey, look what kind of story we got here! The same old frustrating type of crap that writers always do and I'm sick of. Almost exactly to the letter.
I always hated the fact that Prowl tended to get marginalized as the logical, practical person that nobody ever listens to because the Plot Luck means that the illogical, reckless plan of action turns out to always be the correct one, so the logical guy just ends up coming off as whiny and ineffectual. Even -ations Prowl came off as a blind stick-in-the-mud sometimes.
Then we finally get a story from Roche that gives us a Prowl who's logical and cold and actually is right, to the point where his advice being ignored has, yes, actually hurt the Autobots. And the fact that he chooses morally questionable methods to get people to listen to him for their own good had so much interesting potential to cover. Finally we could understand why Prowl is high-up in command even though he rubs everyone the wrong way. But now we're back to the guy who has to give in and be impulsive and emotional due to Plot Luck negating all of his logic, it seems.
What I would have liked to have seen here instead is a story where Prowl still refrains from doing the impulsive, illogical thing and turns out to be right in his judgment... yet for once actually feels remorse about it. As I think that is the real growth Prowl needed to undergo--not some silly "lesson" that he shouldn't be logical and practical all the time or should do impulsive illogical things just because they're "right", but the fact that he shouldn't be so cold-blooded in his feelings about having to sometimes compromise and do cold things. I loved the fact that, for a change, Prowl got to be as competent and shrewd as Shockwave; he just needed to develop that moral center while still doing it that makes him solidly an Autobot vs. Shockwave.
This story sure as hell isn't that. And I was kind of hoping that the thing with Kup might eventually lead to that sort of revelation, but I don't see it happening now either.
Well, at least the art was good. I really love Su's new style... the new designs manage to be more mechanical and alien, but without sacrificing being endearing and expressive.
The dialogue was good too... Costa at least is decent at the technical side of writing. I just wish that almost all of his ideas so far weren't so boring, cliche, and predictable.
(We won't even get into how this is another step in Prime's transformation from, in the -ations, being the only Optimus Prime I could respect as having a practical and hard-nosed counterbalance to his compassion, to being the same sort of Lawful Stupid idiot that every other Optimus Prime is and that I always want to smack upside the head.)
That's exactly how I feel. After finally getting around to reading AHM 15, reading the spotlight today really ticked me off because they made Prowl just like everyone else. Man, I'm Becoming so spoiled now after LSoTW and Mr. Roche's other works. If only they would let him and James take the wheel.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1067458)
Posted by Jeysie on April 23rd, 2010 @ 6:50pm CDT
Yeah, I know what you mean about feeling spoiled.
If we hadn't gotten AHM #15, I'd probably still have found this story boring and cliche, but it probably wouldn't actively annoy me so much, as it'd just be more milquetoast in an already-limp character.
But when AHM #15 came along and got the character just the most perfectly right-feeling ever in his fiction portrayals... it's hard not to shake a feeling of, "No, come on, you had it perfect... why didn't the editor force the writer of this to actually respect continuity for a change?"
Meanwhile, I've also read Wreckers #4, and the ideas and character development that R&R are coming up with continue to put the ongoing to shame.
Posted by Jeysie on April 23rd, 2010 @ 6:50pm CDT
sabrigami wrote:That's exactly how I feel. After finally getting around to reading AHM 15, reading the spotlight today really ticked me off because they made Prowl just like everyone else. Man, I'm Becoming so spoiled now after LSoTW and Mr. Roche's other works. If only they would let him and James take the wheel.
Yeah, I know what you mean about feeling spoiled.
If we hadn't gotten AHM #15, I'd probably still have found this story boring and cliche, but it probably wouldn't actively annoy me so much, as it'd just be more milquetoast in an already-limp character.
But when AHM #15 came along and got the character just the most perfectly right-feeling ever in his fiction portrayals... it's hard not to shake a feeling of, "No, come on, you had it perfect... why didn't the editor force the writer of this to actually respect continuity for a change?"
Meanwhile, I've also read Wreckers #4, and the ideas and character development that R&R are coming up with continue to put the ongoing to shame.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1067492)
Posted by MYoung23 on April 23rd, 2010 @ 9:42pm CDT
Posted by MYoung23 on April 23rd, 2010 @ 9:42pm CDT
I have no problem with the change in Prowl.
We have started to see a change in the Autobots, albeit in McCarthy's haphazard way, since Sideswipe's speech in AHM. It has continued in Ongoing with "changes" of Prime and Thundercracker.
The war, Prowl's "way" along with Autobots losing their way in general have all contributed in some way to Cybertronians stagnating as a species.
Prime was ahead of the curve in understanding how understanding humanity could help them move on as a species which is why he had Prime stay hidden deeply among them (we also now really know why Prime had the Autobots come to and stay on Earth.) You could tell by Prowl's inner monologue as the issue progressed that he was starting to get it. Prowl hasn't undergone a 180 degree change he has found a balance.
If he Prowl had just maintained being the "Autobot Shockwave" it would have given credence to Drift's assertion to Turmoil in his Spotlight that the Autobots had devolved nearly to the point of the Decepticons when the war began.
We have started to see a change in the Autobots, albeit in McCarthy's haphazard way, since Sideswipe's speech in AHM. It has continued in Ongoing with "changes" of Prime and Thundercracker.
The war, Prowl's "way" along with Autobots losing their way in general have all contributed in some way to Cybertronians stagnating as a species.
Prime was ahead of the curve in understanding how understanding humanity could help them move on as a species which is why he had Prime stay hidden deeply among them (we also now really know why Prime had the Autobots come to and stay on Earth.) You could tell by Prowl's inner monologue as the issue progressed that he was starting to get it. Prowl hasn't undergone a 180 degree change he has found a balance.
If he Prowl had just maintained being the "Autobot Shockwave" it would have given credence to Drift's assertion to Turmoil in his Spotlight that the Autobots had devolved nearly to the point of the Decepticons when the war began.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1067527)
Posted by Jeysie on April 23rd, 2010 @ 11:18pm CDT
Yeah, because being logical and practical is evil, and you just can't be a good guy unless you do stupid impulsive things that are bleeding heart in the short-term but will damage the greater good in the long run.
Seriously, see my previous posts in this thread about what's wrong with your thoughts here.
Or better yet, read the last bits of my review about the sort of actual good character growth I wanted to see that would have let him stay as a completely intelligent, logical, and practical type while still being an Autobot. Instead of doing what this spotlight did and turning him into yet another generic cookie-cutter good guy.
I will say that this spotlight has definitely made me realize the ongoing isn't going to be anything but the same old cliched and unoriginal stories as long as Costa's on board. Wake me when Roche and Roberts get another mini, or they find someone to take over the ongoing who has some fresh and more interesting ideas.
Posted by Jeysie on April 23rd, 2010 @ 11:18pm CDT
MYoung23 wrote:If he Prowl had just maintained being the "Autobot Shockwave" it would have given credence to Drift's assertion to Turmoil in his Spotlight that the Autobots had devolved nearly to the point of the Decepticons when the war began.
Yeah, because being logical and practical is evil, and you just can't be a good guy unless you do stupid impulsive things that are bleeding heart in the short-term but will damage the greater good in the long run.
Seriously, see my previous posts in this thread about what's wrong with your thoughts here.
Or better yet, read the last bits of my review about the sort of actual good character growth I wanted to see that would have let him stay as a completely intelligent, logical, and practical type while still being an Autobot. Instead of doing what this spotlight did and turning him into yet another generic cookie-cutter good guy.
I will say that this spotlight has definitely made me realize the ongoing isn't going to be anything but the same old cliched and unoriginal stories as long as Costa's on board. Wake me when Roche and Roberts get another mini, or they find someone to take over the ongoing who has some fresh and more interesting ideas.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1067530)
Posted by MYoung23 on April 23rd, 2010 @ 11:28pm CDT
Ive read it and I'm not buying it.
The Autobots are supposed to be the good guys stopping the Decepticons. Letting innocents die when you can save them goes against what these IDW Autobots are supposed to be about. Cold logic is flawed. Prowl is a big reason why these Autobots lost their way and acting like Shockwave is a big reason why.
Posted by MYoung23 on April 23rd, 2010 @ 11:28pm CDT
Jeysie wrote:MYoung23 wrote:If he Prowl had just maintained being the "Autobot Shockwave" it would have given credence to Drift's assertion to Turmoil in his Spotlight that the Autobots had devolved nearly to the point of the Decepticons when the war began.
Yeah, because being logical and practical is evil, and you just can't be a good guy unless you do stupid impulsive things that are bleeding heart in the short-term but will damage the greater good in the long run.
Seriously, see my previous posts in this thread about what's wrong with your thoughts here.
Or better yet, read the last bits of my review about the sort of actual good character growth I wanted to see that would have let him stay as a completely intelligent, logical, and practical type while still being an Autobot. Instead of doing what this spotlight did and turning him into yet another generic cookie-cutter good guy.
I will say that this spotlight has definitely made me realize the ongoing isn't going to be anything but the same old cliched and unoriginal stories as long as Costa's on board. Wake me when Roche and Roberts get another mini, or they find someone to take over the ongoing who has some fresh and more interesting ideas.
Ive read it and I'm not buying it.
The Autobots are supposed to be the good guys stopping the Decepticons. Letting innocents die when you can save them goes against what these IDW Autobots are supposed to be about. Cold logic is flawed. Prowl is a big reason why these Autobots lost their way and acting like Shockwave is a big reason why.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1067542)
Posted by Jeysie on April 23rd, 2010 @ 11:56pm CDT
1. The humans seem to be doing a great job of stopping the Decepticons themselves at this point. And the Autobots aren't even actively trying to help, they're just sitting around on their thumbs hiding. Prowl's right, they'd be better off moving to a less hostile planet, seeing as how the humans not only can take care of themselves, but are an active threat/enemy to the Autobots.
There's gotta be plenty of other organic races out there in the galaxy who truly would appreciate the Autobots' rebuilding from their own Decepticon attacks or would be non-hostile that the Autobots' time would be better spent helping; why instead waste your time on a species that doesn't want you and your help?
2. And if, while saving said innocent, he ends up dying and/or sparking an even worse anti-Cybertronian frenzy of people saying how "Now the metal monsters are attacking our children!" or something similar, even more people besides that one could die. Prowl got really, really lucky (yay Contrived Plot Luck), as there's so many ways that could have gone wrong and just made things even worse.
The Autobots didn't lose their way at all. They've always been the good guys in this series. That line from Drift was just BS from a writer who misinterpreted most of the -ations and thinks all good guys need to be Lawful Stupid paladin types to be "real" good guys.
Meanwhile, as was pointed out in AHM #15, the various loose cannons and impulsive decisions that backfired are part of why the Autobots are so badly on the rocks right now. If the Autobots keep doing impulsive things in the short term that damage the greater good in the long term, then there will be no one to do any protecting at all, as the Autobots will be wiped out.
(...well, you know. If we weren't reading a story where magic unrealistic Contrived Plot Luck always happens.)
3. Actually, the IDW Autobots were always about being soldiers in a war against their enemy, balancing protecting innocents where they could with the reality that sometimes you have to compromise in the short-term to achieve the greater good in the long term. I liked those Autobots; they were believable and respectable. The Autobots in AHM and the ongoing I just want to slap upside the head and tell to grow some ball bearings and some intelligence, respectively.
On top of that... I'd point out that these are the same Autobots who have done counter-infiltrations on countless planets and seen many of those planets suffer worse massacres than Earth did. Why now, after millions of years, do they suddenly turn into native-worshipping hippies? What's so special about humans compared to all of the other organic species they've met up with and observed and seen suffer?
***
If this spotlight was about almost anyone else, it might make more sense, though it'd still be kind of boring. But it bugs me seeing the type of character I can relate to and empathize with--the one trying to advocate reason, logic, and practicality in a sea of emotional people who do stupidly impulsive and damaging things and ignore you--made into just another boring generic character stripped of what made him interesting.
Posted by Jeysie on April 23rd, 2010 @ 11:56pm CDT
MYoung23 wrote:The Autobots are supposed to be the good guys stopping the Decepticons. Letting innocents die when you can save them goes against what these IDW Autobots are supposed to be about. Cold logic is flawed. Prowl is a big reason why these Autobots lost their way and acting like Shockwave is a big reason why.
1. The humans seem to be doing a great job of stopping the Decepticons themselves at this point. And the Autobots aren't even actively trying to help, they're just sitting around on their thumbs hiding. Prowl's right, they'd be better off moving to a less hostile planet, seeing as how the humans not only can take care of themselves, but are an active threat/enemy to the Autobots.
There's gotta be plenty of other organic races out there in the galaxy who truly would appreciate the Autobots' rebuilding from their own Decepticon attacks or would be non-hostile that the Autobots' time would be better spent helping; why instead waste your time on a species that doesn't want you and your help?
2. And if, while saving said innocent, he ends up dying and/or sparking an even worse anti-Cybertronian frenzy of people saying how "Now the metal monsters are attacking our children!" or something similar, even more people besides that one could die. Prowl got really, really lucky (yay Contrived Plot Luck), as there's so many ways that could have gone wrong and just made things even worse.
The Autobots didn't lose their way at all. They've always been the good guys in this series. That line from Drift was just BS from a writer who misinterpreted most of the -ations and thinks all good guys need to be Lawful Stupid paladin types to be "real" good guys.
Meanwhile, as was pointed out in AHM #15, the various loose cannons and impulsive decisions that backfired are part of why the Autobots are so badly on the rocks right now. If the Autobots keep doing impulsive things in the short term that damage the greater good in the long term, then there will be no one to do any protecting at all, as the Autobots will be wiped out.
(...well, you know. If we weren't reading a story where magic unrealistic Contrived Plot Luck always happens.)
3. Actually, the IDW Autobots were always about being soldiers in a war against their enemy, balancing protecting innocents where they could with the reality that sometimes you have to compromise in the short-term to achieve the greater good in the long term. I liked those Autobots; they were believable and respectable. The Autobots in AHM and the ongoing I just want to slap upside the head and tell to grow some ball bearings and some intelligence, respectively.
On top of that... I'd point out that these are the same Autobots who have done counter-infiltrations on countless planets and seen many of those planets suffer worse massacres than Earth did. Why now, after millions of years, do they suddenly turn into native-worshipping hippies? What's so special about humans compared to all of the other organic species they've met up with and observed and seen suffer?
***
If this spotlight was about almost anyone else, it might make more sense, though it'd still be kind of boring. But it bugs me seeing the type of character I can relate to and empathize with--the one trying to advocate reason, logic, and practicality in a sea of emotional people who do stupidly impulsive and damaging things and ignore you--made into just another boring generic character stripped of what made him interesting.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1067545)
Posted by Dead Metal on April 24th, 2010 @ 12:06am CDT
Posted by Dead Metal on April 24th, 2010 @ 12:06am CDT
That's what I generally hate about humans being TF stories, they always end-up as being worshipped by the Autobots since we're so "special", "amazing" and "humane". Boring and annoying bull-crap.
Can't we once get a tf story that involves humans in a neutral way, in a way that dosen't make us out as the best thing since the start of the universe?
Oh wait we had that in the -ation series.
And yes the -ation series was full of moments in which the Autobots didn't really care for the humans and tried not to harm them when possible except for those moments where it wasn't possible any other way, or when Prime let that truck driver crash into his leg and watched him die.
Can't we once get a tf story that involves humans in a neutral way, in a way that dosen't make us out as the best thing since the start of the universe?
Oh wait we had that in the -ation series.
And yes the -ation series was full of moments in which the Autobots didn't really care for the humans and tried not to harm them when possible except for those moments where it wasn't possible any other way, or when Prime let that truck driver crash into his leg and watched him die.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1067547)
Posted by Chaoslock on April 24th, 2010 @ 12:14am CDT
Posted by Chaoslock on April 24th, 2010 @ 12:14am CDT
I think this was a great comic AS A SPOTLIGHT, but as a link between AHM and Ongoing, as everything IDW tries to link their writers' inability to read their earlier stories, fails.
In the spotlight, Prime tells Prowl they are starting to get back the rest of the universe from the Decepticons, but it is weak; If we are thinking this comic only ties to the -ation series, this is fine, BUT at the start of Ongoing, even the autobots barely have resources at hand. Prime also tells they are using this planet because it is in good position - then why not use a planet that has no malevolent natives - even the Decepticons from Bayformers had their right mind to use the Mars as their base instead of Earth.
I'll give this issue 6/10, it is not bad, but not good either.
In the spotlight, Prime tells Prowl they are starting to get back the rest of the universe from the Decepticons, but it is weak; If we are thinking this comic only ties to the -ation series, this is fine, BUT at the start of Ongoing, even the autobots barely have resources at hand. Prime also tells they are using this planet because it is in good position - then why not use a planet that has no malevolent natives - even the Decepticons from Bayformers had their right mind to use the Mars as their base instead of Earth.
I'll give this issue 6/10, it is not bad, but not good either.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1067861)
Posted by cybercat on April 25th, 2010 @ 6:49am CDT
Posted by cybercat on April 25th, 2010 @ 6:49am CDT
I'm with Jeysie.
First off, I'm obviously not an Autobot type. But one of the things I like about Prowl is the logic.
I don't get the whole 'logic' debate that's going on here. No one doubts that Spock is logical and yet not morally ambiguous.
My take on Prowl is that he is pure logic. I'd even go so far as to say, yes, he's like Shockwave. How is that a bad thing? Prowl is a Second in Command--it makes sense he's an asset (logic) and uses Optimus as his moral compass. And when Optimus disappears...he has a problem. (Bumblebee is a bit !fail on Moral Compass)
So anyway, all that to say, that's what I'm comparing this Prowl to.
One: I liked the art, but I hated the faces. Everything TT said in the review about the style I wholeheartedly agree with, but the face seems...unnecessarily clunky.
Two: The story itself is cliche. I know it's a comic and there's only so much you can do in 16 pages, and at least we got STORY as opposed to 16 pages of Adorable Ravage Kitty Scampering Around, (Wow, guess who has issues with that ToTF?) but 'the heart winning out over the mind'? A bit yawny. It would have been more original (though not by much) to have him let the Bad Thing Happen and then have moral qualms.
Blowing his cover
Saving a human when they're doing *that* to his kind
These are so OOC that it hurts. If he'd kept in character and then had second thoughts...I would have bought some sort of moral change. But...no.
The cover art is pretty, though. AND at least they didn't go...*Prowlicade*.
HK, yeah, that's it, I ended *positive*.
First off, I'm obviously not an Autobot type. But one of the things I like about Prowl is the logic.
I don't get the whole 'logic' debate that's going on here. No one doubts that Spock is logical and yet not morally ambiguous.
My take on Prowl is that he is pure logic. I'd even go so far as to say, yes, he's like Shockwave. How is that a bad thing? Prowl is a Second in Command--it makes sense he's an asset (logic) and uses Optimus as his moral compass. And when Optimus disappears...he has a problem. (Bumblebee is a bit !fail on Moral Compass)
So anyway, all that to say, that's what I'm comparing this Prowl to.
One: I liked the art, but I hated the faces. Everything TT said in the review about the style I wholeheartedly agree with, but the face seems...unnecessarily clunky.
Two: The story itself is cliche. I know it's a comic and there's only so much you can do in 16 pages, and at least we got STORY as opposed to 16 pages of Adorable Ravage Kitty Scampering Around, (Wow, guess who has issues with that ToTF?) but 'the heart winning out over the mind'? A bit yawny. It would have been more original (though not by much) to have him let the Bad Thing Happen and then have moral qualms.
Blowing his cover
Saving a human when they're doing *that* to his kind
These are so OOC that it hurts. If he'd kept in character and then had second thoughts...I would have bought some sort of moral change. But...no.
The cover art is pretty, though. AND at least they didn't go...*Prowlicade*.
HK, yeah, that's it, I ended *positive*.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1075105)
Posted by minimus-minor on May 16th, 2010 @ 7:47pm CDT
Posted by minimus-minor on May 16th, 2010 @ 7:47pm CDT
Sorry for coming in late. Why do I always get in late for the damn forums?
Anyway, here's my views on Prowl: http://comicbookrevolution.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=383:transformers-spotlight-prowl-review&catid=85:idw&Itemid=96
In summary: a pretty good issue, some nice character development, but a tad unprofessional, and Costa wouldn't need this is he'd portrtayed Prowl right in the first place!
Anyway, here's my views on Prowl: http://comicbookrevolution.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=383:transformers-spotlight-prowl-review&catid=85:idw&Itemid=96
In summary: a pretty good issue, some nice character development, but a tad unprofessional, and Costa wouldn't need this is he'd portrtayed Prowl right in the first place!
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1075362)
Posted by Cyberstrike on May 17th, 2010 @ 1:28pm CDT
The problem is that if Prowl stayed "logical and pratical" a writer could turn him in the Autobot's version of Shockwave. The thing is that even at end of Furman's God Awful Run at IDW even he was showing that some of the Autobots weren't much better than the Decepticons.
Yes, you can be logical and pratical and still be a good guy, just like you can be emotional and immpulisive, the real trick is finding and maintaining balane, which is what Prowl is trying to do.
Posted by Cyberstrike on May 17th, 2010 @ 1:28pm CDT
Jeysie wrote:MYoung23 wrote:If he Prowl had just maintained being the "Autobot Shockwave" it would have given credence to Drift's assertion to Turmoil in his Spotlight that the Autobots had devolved nearly to the point of the Decepticons when the war began.
Yeah, because being logical and practical is evil, and you just can't be a good guy unless you do stupid impulsive things that are bleeding heart in the short-term but will damage the greater good in the long run.
Seriously, see my previous posts in this thread about what's wrong with your thoughts here.
Or better yet, read the last bits of my review about the sort of actual good character growth I wanted to see that would have let him stay as a completely intelligent, logical, and practical type while still being an Autobot. Instead of doing what this spotlight did and turning him into yet another generic cookie-cutter good guy.
I will say that this spotlight has definitely made me realize the ongoing isn't going to be anything but the same old cliched and unoriginal stories as long as Costa's on board. Wake me when Roche and Roberts get another mini, or they find someone to take over the ongoing who has some fresh and more interesting ideas.
The problem is that if Prowl stayed "logical and pratical" a writer could turn him in the Autobot's version of Shockwave. The thing is that even at end of Furman's God Awful Run at IDW even he was showing that some of the Autobots weren't much better than the Decepticons.
Yes, you can be logical and pratical and still be a good guy, just like you can be emotional and immpulisive, the real trick is finding and maintaining balane, which is what Prowl is trying to do.
Re: "Logic is the ultimate weapon."- Transformers Spotlight Prowl Review (1075454)
Posted by Jeysie on May 17th, 2010 @ 5:23pm CDT
Er, no he wasn't. Furman instead was finally breaking away from the tired cliche that good guys have to be bleeding heart types to count as good, and giving us more believable, practical and/or imperfect good guys. I miss Furman's more nuanced and more interesting take on the Autobots.
It was McCarthy who showed a lack of depth/understanding and put his incorrect perception of the IDW Autobots into that clueless line of Drift's.
Except that Costa's version of Prowl has no balance. He's pretty much gone straight over to the typical impractical impulsively-good Autobot standpoint. Whereas, like I said, the type of story I wanted to see would have been real in-character balance.
Posted by Jeysie on May 17th, 2010 @ 5:23pm CDT
Cyberstrike wrote:The thing is that even at end of Furman's God Awful Run at IDW even he was showing that some of the Autobots weren't much better than the Decepticons.
Er, no he wasn't. Furman instead was finally breaking away from the tired cliche that good guys have to be bleeding heart types to count as good, and giving us more believable, practical and/or imperfect good guys. I miss Furman's more nuanced and more interesting take on the Autobots.
It was McCarthy who showed a lack of depth/understanding and put his incorrect perception of the IDW Autobots into that clueless line of Drift's.
Cyberstrike wrote:Yes, you can be logical and pratical and still be a good guy, just like you can be emotional and immpulisive, the real trick is finding and maintaining balane, which is what Prowl is trying to do.
Except that Costa's version of Prowl has no balance. He's pretty much gone straight over to the typical impractical impulsively-good Autobot standpoint. Whereas, like I said, the type of story I wanted to see would have been real in-character balance.
