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I've just finished watching episode 17 of Car Robots, so I've properly met Black Convoy. Gotta say I wish his dialogue was better. I like him a lot - he kicks a ton of ass - but he's always going on about "the flowers of evil" needing to bloom.

Man. I was hoping for more ... badassery? I guess something's lost in the cultural exchange. Looking back, I remember Black Lio Convoy also held a rose so maybe there's a theme I'm just not getting.

Maybe I would have gotten more out of English dub this time around, but I really believe in experiencing shows the way they were meant to be experienced.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Maybe I would have gotten more out of English dub this time around, but I really believe in experiencing shows the way they were meant to be experienced.

Could've just watched both sub and dub back-to-back. That's what I did when Car Robots was first subbed in full, as I wanted to see what all was changed between the two versions after having been able to only watch the dub for so long.

Although, "experiencing shows the way they were meant to be experienced" is gonna get real complicated by the time you get to Galaxy Force, as one could argue that the English dub "Cybertron" version is a closer representation of Hasbro's original creative vision for the series, as it was Hasbro's then-current design director Aaron Archer who first conceptualized what would ultimately become the third installment in the Unicron Trilogy, but with the show's Japanese production company largely ignoring much of those plans and opting to instead do their own thing, requiring Hasbro to play a haphazard game of damage control with both the English dub and several pieces of newly-created tie-in material in order to better realign the series with their original plans for it as another sequel series.

If I watched the sub and dub back to back I don't think I'd enjoy the show. I think it'd be too similar of an experience. I think I'd get bored.

I'm aware of Cybertron's odd nature. That's this weird standalone series in Japan. Despite Megatron sporting Unicron bits. BUT. The Japanese show did come first. So those depictions of the characters are the primary versions. So, if I'm gonna choose, I'll still choose to follow that version. Even if they did botch the original intent with the English dub trying to do damage control. It's still, primarily, a Japanese show. First and foremost.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:If I watched the sub and dub back to back I don't think I'd enjoy the show. I think it'd be too similar of an experience. I think I'd get bored.

In my case, I had fun noticing all the differences between RID and CR, as even the music and sound effects were completely changed. And certain shots were rearranged or even cut out completely. It felt like two different experiences. Not to mention the three episodes each version had that didn't exist in the other version.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I'm aware of Cybertron's odd nature. That's this weird standalone series in Japan. Despite Megatron sporting Unicron bits. BUT. The Japanese show did come first. So those depictions of the characters are the primary versions. So, if I'm gonna choose, I'll still choose to follow that version. Even if they did botch the original intent with the English dub trying to do damage control. It's still, primarily, a Japanese show. First and foremost.

Erm, the whole Unicron Trilogy was a pretty atypical case when it came to anime development, as they were each a co-production with Hasbro still having some say over the story. Like, the giant Supreme class Starscream toy that Hasbro put out in their version of the toyline was only added into the show later per Hasbro's initiative and never got sold in the Takara line proper, only reaching Japan as an import in Hasbro packaging sold as a Toys R Us exclusive. Likewise, several Hasbro-only toys were added into the Energon/Superlink and Cybertron/Galaxy Force cartoons despite never being sold in the Takara toylines (like Supreme class Starscream, these toys were instead Hasbro-packaged imports). It was a very unusual time.

Ah, I remember that guy. And a bit about that whole time. It's right when I started collecting. MP-01. The original reissue lines. I remember being blown away that Unicron finally got a figure. What a time!

Well, I guess I'll get to it when I get to it, but in my eyes, it's still aired in Japan first making it an anime first. It may have gone against the original intent, with the toys also being really skewed (re:Megatron, as mentioned), but I still kinda see it as anime first.

Unless you're saying a more true viewing experience is watching it as Armada (J), Energon (J), and then Cybertron (E). (I know their names are different in Japan, but I don't recall them offhand) I'm only watching one version of all of these (after all, I have quite the journey to go through). So I gotta pick just ONE. I don't think I'll ever be a true TF expert, but I'll settle for catching up on all the stuff I just didn't bother watching and familiarizing myself with material outside my comfort zone.

But you're saying it's actually better in this case to at least watch Cybertron over the Japanese version?

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Unless you're saying a more true viewing experience is watching it as Armada (J), Energon (J), and then Cybertron (E). (I know their names are different in Japan, but I don't recall them offhand) I'm only watching one version of all of these (after all, I have quite the journey to go through). So I gotta pick just ONE. I don't think I'll ever be a true TF expert, but I'll settle for catching up on all the stuff I just didn't bother watching and familiarizing myself with material outside my comfort zone.

But you're saying it's actually better in this case to at least watch Cybertron over the Japanese version?

Ooh, I never thought of doing that, going J-J-E. But, no, I wouldn't advise doing that. The Cybertron dub was designed to connect to the Armada and Energon dubs, which also had their fair share of differences from the Japanese versions.

Though, funnily enough, the English version of Armada started and finished before the Japanese version, with only 12 episodes in the middle of the series airing in Japan before the English version caught back up and overtook it again.

From what I've heard (as I myself have still not yet watched all of the original Japanese versions of Armada, Energon, and Cybertron, and may actually join you on your journey when you get around to watching them), the Japanese versions of Armada and Energon are the better versions to watch. And having seen the dubs of all three, Armada's dub starts off pretty mediocre, but it improves later on. The dub of Energon, however, starts off decent but just goes downhill and never ever recovers. Cybertron is the only one with an all-around good dub from start to finish, and seems to have been given a very similar treatment to the RID dub of Car Robots, in that extra care was taken to make it a more unique experience different enough from the Japanese version in an interesting way.

But if you're looking to stick with one language for the whole ride of the trilogy, I'd say stay the course you're currently on.

Ok, then Japanese it is! Especially if the dub of Armada and Energon are supposed to be mediocre. Maybe that's what led me to lose patience with them? Apart from the whole age / location gap as well.

Maybe one day I'll give the RID and Cybertron dubs a chance. But there's a lot of material to go through. Speaking of I'm over halfway done with Car Robots. Just about to meet the most different Ultra Magnus ever. WAY too many good guys.

Also, I just remembered something. You once said you wanted to see what the goofy Japanese Beast Wars Megatron was like. Well, the three theatrical Beast Wars features were fansubbed in English along with the Beast Wars II movie.

Clash! Beast Warriors
(a "compilation movie" summarizing events of the first season but with newly-created dialogue for this presentation)


Beast Wars Metals ("the movie")
(the Season 2 episode "Bad Spark", with a new prologue recapping the first three episodes of Season 2)


Beast Wars Metals: Convoy's Great Transformation
(the season 3 episode "Cutting Edge", with an extensive prologue explaining events of "The Agenda" and "Optimal Situation")

I watched the first two. Yeah, it's pretty different. I ... don't think I like it. Maybe if I were younger I'd appreciate it more. Beast Wars already had a lot of humor this was just too much. But maybe if I were in grade school I'd appreciate a more madcap Megs.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I watched the first two. Yeah, it's pretty different. I ... don't think I like it. Maybe if I were younger I'd appreciate it more. Beast Wars already had a lot of humor this was just too much. But maybe if I were in grade school I'd appreciate a more madcap Megs.

And Japan did the same thing to Beast Machines, Animated, Prime, Cyberverse... you know, all the really dramatic ones.

I heard about that too.

I can get that Japan sees TFs as being just for kids, but was Animated really that far off from their usual fare? I remember it as very jokey.
But I guess it worked out for them, right? Although, if you ask me, they were robbed! Beast Wars, Prime, and Animated were fantastic!

Although I can't speak for Cyberverse because that's a series I skipped. I just started watching it and, like most of these, couldn't get into it. But I'll give it another try. When I get to it. If I don't burn myself out.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Although I can't speak for Cyberverse because that's a series I skipped. I just started watching it and, like most of these, couldn't get into it. But I'll give it another try. When I get to it. If I don't burn myself out.

Yeah, Cyberverse season 1 is a completely different beast from the rest of it, bogged down mostly by its having to tie-in spiritually with the Bumblebee movie by having Bee both radio-speak and an amnesiac. Though, the anthology-style storytelling was also something of a hindrance, in hindsight it feels like it was meant as a means to educate new viewers on the modern backstory lore for Transformers. The first season does improve as more and more of the present-day story is revealed, with more of the Decepticons' operations on Earth being revealed little by little, and a series of mysteries on the Autobots' side being gradually explored and ultimately fulfilled by the season 1 finale.

Come season 2 of Cyberverse, however, and the show completely switches gears, doing away entirely with Bumblebee's radio-speak and amnesia, and pushing him and Windblade firmly into the background in order to give everyone else some much needed time in the spotlight. The anthology-style storytelling was gone too, and the show only got better and more intriguing as it went along. Season 3 of Cyberverse is right up there among the greats, and short-length epilogue of a fourth season is pretty fun too.

I just finished watching episode 28 where the Destrons have Fire Convoy and the Autobot Bros against the wall forcing Magnus' heart to grow 3x as large in order to fight. It's supposed to be a touching moment, but I can't but think they could have called upon the JRX team or the Spychangers or the Build team to clobber all opposition. Like, this is literally not a fight they haven't faced before now.

It would have REALLY helped if the writers cribbed a trick from Beast Wars and were able to jam Cybertron communication frequencies. Like, this whole episode is supposed to be about Magnus' character growth, but it's undercut since I know the Cybertrons have a whole crapload of warriors around the globe ready at a moment's notice. Including TWO combiners! The writers just aren't trying hard enough to make the bad guys a credible threat here. The good guy problem feel a lot like that found in BWII, except even more pronounced because the good guys have no hindrances on their abilities at all while in II at least their ship was broken and the Insectrons weren't fully Cybertrons.

It's an unfortunate symptom of a combination of two things.

First, Car Robots is one of the more comedic series, so the bad guys end up being treated more humorously than credibly.

And secondly is a more cultural aspect at play: In Japan, bad guy toys don't sell very well, so when it comes to Japanese-original Transformers series being made without Hasbro's input, Takara tended to outnumber the bad guy toys by a wide margin, making a much smaller number of them compared to the more numerous amount of good guy toys. Japanese creators want to make and promote more good guy toys as role models for the young viewers, leaving bad guy toys getting the short end of the stick.

Ironically, by simply having multiple bad guy toys at all, Transformers is one of the biggest exceptions to this in Japan since many other Japanese hero shows don't get any bad guy toys made at all. Just good guy toys.

I'm really trying to keep it in mind as I watch, but it severely undercuts ALL the tension found in the series. I mean, there are so many ways to make a small team of bad guys work.

- A stated, have give them the ability to cut off communication. At one point they manage to break the Cybertron Net. It would have been great if they managed to break it permanently. From a storytelling point of view anyway.

- Drones. Vehicons, Sweeps, Seekers, Shakticons, and more - the series had so many drones. And there's a reason for that. If Gigatron had a disposable array of baddies I think the threat level could be upped a bit. Even as a distraction device.

- Power ups. I know we're getting to Devil Gigatron. Not sure how it happens yet, but I know there's a toy out there. But if the bad guys could power up for a short time it'd help balance out the fact that the good guys could summon an entire army.

I get the whole "bad guy toys don't sell", but even Power Rangers have putties and a few lieutenants to balance things out. I'm getting a little ahead of myself in my series analysis, but the problem Car Robots faces is that the Predecons are this small, insurgent force in a heavily fortified Autobot world full of warriors (as opposed to the scientists and scouts of the G1 era). I'm trying to give the show a break by reminding myself that G1 forgot about Jetfire, Omega Supreme, and a whole host of guys when it wasn't their focus episode. At a certain point it feels as if I'm making excuses for the show, though. After all, I have to compare it to the show from 20 years prior to make it make sense.

Ultimately it's a flaw. All they needed to do was have Gigabat have the power to use his sonar to disrupt communications. That way, if he's there at least, they can't summon help. Tension. Why he's not there to help is a problem in and of itself. It's a persistent problem with the Japanese Predecond leaders. It takes so little to fix the "too many good guys" problem, but they rely on us just forgetting those good guys exist.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I get the whole "bad guy toys don't sell", but even Power Rangers have putties and a few lieutenants to balance things out.

That's actually one of the biggest differences between Power Rangers and its original counterpart Super Sentai. Power Rangers will make toys of some of the bad guys, but Super Sentai more often than than not can't be bothered to make any bad guy toys.

One of the actors from Ryusoulger even had to import a Hasbro toy of his character's counterpart from Power Rangers Dino Fury in order to have a toy of that character because Bandai of Japan never made one themselves, despite said character having been one of the most prominent villain characters in Ryusoulger.

Ouch. That's pretty limiting. TBH, this seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy on the part of marketing in Japan. To me the villains are more interesting than the heroes most of the time. Usually the motivations of the heroes are pretty clear-cut, but the villains can be a bit deeper. They can be flashier and crazier. A bit more fun. Who would Batman be without the Joker? Superman without Lex Luthor? As a kid I'd have to make believe half of my toys were villains I just didn't have. Seems like a worse situation in Japan.

Of course the old cartoon heroes back in the day are a little bland in comparison to the villains. I mean who wouldn't prefer Skeletor to He-man? They have definitely taken things up a notch these days.

Car Robots

Ah, the last ten episodes. When any shonen anime truly shines. Before I really start, I gotta say, on that ending...

The cribbed from Superman!? Really!? For real!? What!? I feel that Gigatron probably shoulda just been scrap at the end there. But toys of dead characters don't sell too well.

So, that's it, then. The last of the JBW trilogy. The filler trilogy? The sorta-but-not-really-trilogy? In some ways it feels like we've come full circle form BWII. New toys VS old toys again. Beasts VS Machines. And, like BWII, it's back to a more comedic tone. And back to have way too many good guys.

But I feel the structure is better. Although it does forget the Spychangers, Wrecker Hook, and Indy Heat exist at all. I'm glad they all come back for the end, even if they don't contribute. That's something Neo didn't do, much to it's detriment.

At first the comedic tone kinda grated because they used Speedbreaker's simping too much. But once they finally stopped relying on that for every single episode I grew to like him more. It's a funny gag and all, but not that funny. Similarly Gelshark grew on my as the show continued on. TBH I'm a bit surprised he didn't turn full-out good guy in the end, but you know what? It's better he didn't. Sometimes a bad guy with a good streak is better. More interesting. The show doesn't need another damned good guy!

Brave Max is the most useless Fort Max of the three Max bros. WTF? A giant Transformer that needs a heroic spirit to remember to do something? Maybe just give him a heroic spirit or something. All of this "the Earth's children are so important" stuff is so saccharine it makes my teeth hurt. I could have done without it. And when he does finally activate he's so slow and useless, especially compared to his G1 brethren. Maybe it's because he's such an old toy now!

Not using Megabolt Megatron in this cartoon is an absolute waste. Even if it's not Megatron himself. He's living on top of my TR Fort Max right now since I found that mold sooooo disappointing. I just feel like the Destrons not directly controlling Brave Max - ever - was a waste of potential. They are just never, truly, a threat.

Of all the Autobots I think my fav is Ultra Magnus. I'm a sucker for broody loner types. Almost makes me with I backed the Haslab. Almost. I do like his development from the start of the series to the end. And his friendship with Speedbreaker. Although him having to be convinced to merge with Prime at the end is like ... WTF? What about all the other times you did so without a fuss, dude? I'm glad he was brought intot he show when he was. Kinda mixed it up for a while.

I can see why people like Gelshark now, but I think Black Convoy is my fav. His "the flowers of evil" dialogue is probably a lot more badass in Japan than here, but I like his competence and he always gives a good fight. I like the touch of him remembering his past as a Cybertron warrior a bit and Gigatron's plan of infusing him with his essence backfiring a little. His best moment has to be when he and the Combatrons are all pretending to be good guys, though.

Fire Convoy seems more naive than other Primes. He just keeps wanting the Combatrons to be good guys and it, surprisingly, just never happens. Not even a bit! Which was nice to see. Sometimes bad people just never come around.

Gigatron does get involved more than either Galvatron or Magmatron, but not enough. If I think back to G1 Prime and Megatron fighting is what sold me on the entire show. Their whole dynamic! We have a touch more of that here, but not quite enough. He also doesn't really have any plans to speak of - a trend among J Destron leaders. They just delegate the plans to their lieutenants and then get mad when they fail. Other than the endings, I with the J leaders would come up with more of their own plots to destroy the Cybertrons. Maybe the UT will show me that?

And what was his tacked-on motivation for wanting to rule the universe? As an immortal being he he no destiny, unlike the children of Earth. So he'll steal their power and finally be able to change and evolve? Maybe chat with IDW Megatron sometime. Sounds like a real YOU problem, buddy. Sounds really ... tacked on. I don't even really understand what he's getting at.

The ending fight was really good though. I liked that. Omega Prime holding Brave Max's sword was epic.

I know this show is supposed to connect to G1 continuity. It mentions that Brave Max was sent to control energy found in the Earth, and I guess that's supposed to be the Anglomois Energy? I guess I can see how G1 could progress to this. In G1 we had just one spaceship in a volcano. Now the Autobots are well established on Earth. But, also, when Gigatron appears nobody should be surprised at this point. It should be more along the lines of "aw, not again!" That one lady shouldn't be freaked out by a driverless car. People really ought to know who the Autobots are!

I think I enjoyed this series more consistently either Neo or II. But it took a while to get up to speed. I did find myself frustrated at the extremely repetitive fights. I mean. At a certain point we just keep seeing the Build Team and JRX fight Black Convoy and Ruination. It's hard to make a comedy/action show interesting when you back the same toys together. And I have to come back to flaws with the writing.

Remembering Beast Wars - that's a show with a limited cast. But they kept it interesting by having the scenarios be different. Sometimes allies were hindered. Someone generally had to stay behind to guard the base. Introducing the Cybertron Net was a BIG mistake. If they didn't have that then some of the good guys could, in theory, just be too far away to help.

Still, the characters kind of helped to balance out the weaknesses of the show. I like that early-00s feel. The fights (and transformation sequences) were good, just repetitive. I don't think any of the shows I've watched needed to be as long as they were. If they had kept things tighter I think it would have helped.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Brave Max is the most useless Fort Max of the three Max bros. WTF? A giant Transformer that needs a heroic spirit to remember to do something? Maybe just give him a heroic spirit or something. All of this "the Earth's children are so important" stuff is so saccharine it makes my teeth hurt. I could have done without it. And when he does finally activate he's so slow and useless, especially compared to his G1 brethren. Maybe it's because he's such an old toy now!

Now that we know for certain that Car Robots is part of JG1 (it wasn't known to the western fandom at the time), what powers Brave Maximus is basically like a form of Jinchokon, the Chokon Power of humanity from Masterforce.

"Heroic spirit" was more of a creative liberty on part of the translation team. The term used was 正義の心 ("seigi no kokoro"), which more accurately means "heart of justice", "heart of righteousness", "righteous heart", "just heart", etc. It's a very... "Japanese" thing, common to a lot of kids hero anime.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Not using Megabolt Megatron in this cartoon is an absolute waste. Even if it's not Megatron himself. He's living on top of my TR Fort Max right now since I found that mold sooooo disappointing. I just feel like the Destrons not directly controlling Brave Max - ever - was a waste of potential. They are just never, truly, a threat.

That toy didn't yet exist at the time Car Robots was in development, which would have been 1999-2000. The Megatron Megabolt toy was first released in 2002. While it was originally developed for Beast Machines, the earliest it would have seen release in that line would have been late spring/early summer 2001, when the Car Robots line ended in November 2000.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Of all the Autobots I think my fav is Ultra Magnus. I'm a sucker for broody loner types. Almost makes me with I backed the Haslab. Almost. I do like his development from the start of the series to the end. And his friendship with Speedbreaker. Although him having to be convinced to merge with Prime at the end is like ... WTF? What about all the other times you did so without a fuss, dude? I'm glad he was brought intot he show when he was. Kinda mixed it up for a while.

Aw, he's just putting on airs. Gotta keep that reputation of his intact and mess with his brother. Total sibling vibes from those two to the very end.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I can see why people like Gelshark now, but I think Black Convoy is my fav. His "the flowers of evil" dialogue is probably a lot more badass in Japan than here, but I like his competence and he always gives a good fight. I like the touch of him remembering his past as a Cybertron warrior a bit and Gigatron's plan of infusing him with his essence backfiring a little. His best moment has to be when he and the Combatrons are all pretending to be good guys, though.

You just named all three of my favorites as well. Magnus, Gelshark, and Black Convoy. Though, they were already my favorites from the English version, too.

And yeah, the dub omitted the "flowers of evil" bit from "Scourge's" dialogue, opting to work around that instead with a more no-nonsense, diligent attitude.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Gigatron does get involved more than either Galvatron or Magmatron, but not enough. If I think back to G1 Prime and Megatron fighting is what sold me on the entire show. Their whole dynamic! We have a touch more of that here, but not quite enough. He also doesn't really have any plans to speak of - a trend among J Destron leaders. They just delegate the plans to their lieutenants and then get mad when they fail. Other than the endings, I with the J leaders would come up with more of their own plots to destroy the Cybertrons. Maybe the UT will show me that?

To my surprise, there were actually subtle hints to Gigatron's search for Brave Maximus sprinkled sporadically throughout the series (hints that the English dub omitted because the dub didn't know they were hints because of how subtle they were). Off the top of my head:

• In Episode 6, when Gelshark flashes back to a conversation he had with Gigatron about why Gigatron has brought his forces to, of all places, the backwater planet that is Earth, Gigatron mentions that he heard ramblings of there being "some great thing" hidden here on Earth that he can use to conquer the universe (the subtitles for this episode made the scene even more vague by interpreting the dialogue in the plural as "some great things" instead).
• In Episode 13, being the first recap episode, the same conversation held in Episode 6 is reiterated, as the subject of that episode was the cast trying to determine what Gigatron wants with the Earth (as the episode was titled "Gigatron's Ambitions Revealed!").
• In Episode 27, in the scene where Gelshark tries to persuade God Magnus to side with the Destrongers, Gelshark mentions "we have discovered there's a power which is enough to conquer the universe," alluding to the great power that they've searching for on Earth.
• And in Episode 30, as Cybertron City arises from beneath the ruins it was hidden under, Gigatron watches the footage on his monitor inside his base and says "That's it! There's no doubt about it! That is what I've been searching for; the absolute power to rule the universe!"

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I know this show is supposed to connect to G1 continuity. It mentions that Brave Max was sent to control energy found in the Earth, and I guess that's supposed to be the Anglomois Energy?

That's the gist of it, yes. In Episode 30, Black Convoy mentions that Brave Maximus was hidden on Earth to protect something called "Gaia Energy". This is something that's never explained within Car Robots itself, but the show does also say, in Episode 32, that the OOParts were created by Vector Sigma, whom JG1 has been treated as a god to the Transformers. So since the OOParts are part of Brave Maximus's activation, their origins being divine suggests that Brave Maximus himself might be as well.

This is where the post-2000 JG1 fiction comes in to weave things together in order to explain what the original shows didn't. When Kiss Players did its massive time travel storyline in 2007, said storyline ended with the Angolmois Energy being sealed within the Earth during prehistoric times (but long after the Beast Wars) by Primus, who then created something to stand guard and watch over said energy. That something was Brave Maximus. We actually got to see this depicted visually later on in Unite Warriors (in the top-left corner):



So, between Kiss Players's second-year storyline and Unite Warriors, it seemed that Gaia Energy and Angolmois Energy were equated with each other and treated as the same thing with two different names.

Then, in the epilogue to Transformers Legends, some new information was brought to light. In the year 2029, Chip Chase says that humanity has discovered a new power source hidden deep within the Earth, an energy they called Angolmois Energy. But, how they acquired it, Chip says, was by extracting from within another substance called Gaia Energy, meaning they're not the same thing after all.

To make things more frustrating, earlier in this thread that I mentioned Legends had also retconned Angolmois Energy into being Chichokon, the Chokon Power of the Earth from Masterforce. While that's all fine and dandy from the perspective of Angolmois Energy being the life energy of the Earth as originally given in BWII, it doesn't really work with the Unicron retcon of BW Neo. But, with the epilogue distinguishing Angolmois Energy from Gaia Energy, everything suddenly makes sense if we assume that Gaia Energy is really the lifeforce of Earth (and Chichokon) while Angolmois Energy is Unicron's energy, and that the cast of BWII and Neo simply conflated the two because of how they were physically mixed together with each other (after all, in order to extract something from another thing, the former must be inside the latter in some way).

BUT THEN, we got one more piece of JG1 fiction that dealt with Angolmois Energy as it was depicted in both BWII and Neo, and this one really wanted to have its cake and eat it too. In 2022, the Masterpiece toy MP-48+ Dark Amber Leo Prime (the black redeco of MP-48 Lio Convoy) received a two-part online manga titled "End of G1 Universe" (set in a far future setting not unlike IDW's "Last Bot Standing" series), and this two-part story really leaned into both notions of Angolmois Energy being Earth's energy and Unicron's energy, insisting that both assertions were equally true. Which. Makes. No. SENSE!

It seems the only way to rationalize this is to fall back on the notion of Gaia Energy truly being the Earth energy, and just say that Unicron's Angolmois Energy had become so thoroughly mixed into it that the two basically became one with each other, hence why Chip said the Angolmois Energy had to be extracted from within the Gaia Energy. That's the only way I can see all of this making any sense.

And you know what the oddest thing about all of this is? Legends, Unite Warriors, and End of G1 Universe were all written by the same man, Hayato Sakamoto. So it wasn't a case of multiple authors not doing checks and balances on each other. It was one man conflicting with himself.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I guess I can see how G1 could progress to this. In G1 we had just one spaceship in a volcano. Now the Autobots are well established on Earth. But, also, when Gigatron appears nobody should be surprised at this point. It should be more along the lines of "aw, not again!"

Rewatching the scene of Gigatron's debut in the first episode, the people seem more alarmed by the sight of his giant hand mode before he transforms. In the G1 cartoon's first two seasons, the Earth-based Decepticons all turned into Earthly vehicles and objects, whereas Gigatron's hand mode is something truly alien and otherworldly. And once he transforms, someone can be heard shouting "It's really a robot!", knowing what he is. They stay worried at his appearance because, well, look at him. He looks terrifying. None of the G1 season 1-2 Decepticon had giant demon wings. And he just announced his decision to dominate humanity. That's a threat the crowd of onlookers aren't going to just brush off when the giant demonic-looking robot making threats to them is basically standing right there in front of them while they remain completely at his mercy. Dr. Onishi truly was the bravest one there, speaking out against Gigatron the way he did.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:That one lady shouldn't be freaked out by a driverless car.

Which lady? The one always being harassed by Speedbreaker? Well, in the first episode, she was shocked that her own SUV (which she didn't know was secretly alive) suddenly ejected her. Anyone would be surprised by that.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:People really ought to know who the Autobots are!

Some do. In Episode 3, a random train dispatcher identifies Fire Convoy by name and faction on the spot. It's really only Yuki who didn't know what the Transformers were, and he's a dumb little kid from the other side of the world where the Transformers didn't have a major presence on Earth (and, from a real-world perspective, his unawareness was used to introduce the concept of Transformers and their two different factions to new young viewers who were just getting into Transformers through Car Robots).

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I think I enjoyed this series more consistently either Neo or II. But it took a while to get up to speed. I did find myself frustrated at the extremely repetitive fights. I mean. At a certain point we just keep seeing the Build Team and JRX fight Black Convoy and Ruination. It's hard to make a comedy/action show interesting when you back the same toys together. And I have to come back to flaws with the writing.

It mostly boils down to how Car Robots used a similar format to BWII with how it advertised its toys:

• Episodes 1-9 advertised the first three waves of Car Robots toys (Fire Convoy, the 3 Car Robo Brothers, the Spychangers, the five Destrongers, and Team Shinkansen)
• Episodes 10-13 advertised the fourth wave of toys (Indy Heat, and Wrecker Hook)
• Episodes 14-19 advertised the fifth wave (the six Combatrons)
• Episodes 20-23 advertised the sixth wave (the Buildmasters)
• Episodes 24-28 advertised the seventh wave (God Magnus and the 3 Super Car Robo Brothers)
• Episodes 29-39 advertised the final eighth wave (Brave Maximus and Devil Gigatron) and a special Toys 'R' Us exclusive clear God Fire Convoy set that featured the Super God Sword

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Still, the characters kind of helped to balance out the weaknesses of the show. I like that early-00s feel. The fights (and transformation sequences) were good, just repetitive. I don't think any of the shows I've watched needed to be as long as they were. If they had kept things tighter I think it would have helped.

I feel like the length was a requirement of the fact that it was a toyetic anime. It needed to keep on the air with a new episode each week (Japan really doesn't like to do reruns), while still sticking to the timing of each toy wave's release schedule. It's something that pretty much every Japanese-made televised TF cartoon has to adhere to.

Of course I knew Brave Max was coming, so I picked up on the subtle clues about Brave Max. Although I don't credit Gelshark's narrative as one; he's just repeating what Gigs said. I still wish they had utilized Brave better. Okay, Megabolt's out. But I still find myself disappointed. He just doesn't have as much presence as Fort or even Grand. I'd have appreaciated a bit more clarity on how Gigs knew about Max though. "I heard a rumor about some power" isn't that great. Where did he hear this rumor? It seems like the Earth holds a couple great powers, so it could be any number of them depending on the source. He'd have wasted a lot of time if he heard the wrong rumor and came looking for Zodiac!

Yeah, I've seen enough anime to recognize the "heroic spirit" trope. I get it. I just hate it. I guess it plays well for them if they keep doing it.

Knowing the toy release schedule helps me understand the structure of the show better. However, I still have to understand this as a show and rate it as such. And it's still possible to make this show more interesting while keeping the same general format. Again, I gotta harp on the whole Cybernet. The large cast wouldn't bother me as much if they weren't capable of being summoned anywhere instantly.

It sounds like the writer of the UW/Legends/EoG1 comics kept bad notes. Or maybe he had one idea and then changed his mind. Not sure why he had that brain fart there.

By Episode 3 Fire Convoy has made himself and the Cybertrons known. I think Yuki not knowing who the Autobots are is a pretty big hole in the "it's all connected" idea. I understand the narrative device, but still. We've have about two Autobot cities on Earth (or more), the EDC, Mars BLEW UP (and was rebuilt), planet Cybertron ITSELF was in Earth's orbit, not to mention the various cities that were caught up in the battles between Scorpy and Fort Max and Black Zarak attacking the place willy nilly. Even if it was a couple decades in the past it beggars belief that anyone wouldn't know who the Autobots are. It'd be like not knowing about the dinosaurs in general.

Not that I dispute the idea that RiD is connected, mind you. It's just that the idea that there aren't museums or people teaching this in school seems unbelievable. Just another flaw in the writing. It would have been a good idea if they had Fire Convoy say something like "After many destructive battles we want to keep our presence on Earth to a minimum and as secretive as possible." It would go a long way to explain why there isn't a more prominent Autobot City anymore.

It's like the series can't decide how involved the TFs are. Post G1 we see them very involved with Earth. Then, in Masterforce everyone has amnesia and TFs aren't anywhere to be seen, and what few there are leave at the end. Then in Victory they're back to being involved in everyday life with Star Saber just living on Earth with his adopted kid. Now in Car Robots they're living in secret and Yuki, at least, doesn't know who they are. I think the world just isn't very well thought out.

Come to think of it, I do wonder why Fire Convoy is there in the first place. It's not like he followed Gigatron; he was already present on the planet. According tot he wiki he's part of a "Dimensional Patrol", but how's that supposed to work with the well-established Autobot presence on Earth?

Car Robots takes place in the year 2000, before all of the events that happened in TFTM, G1 season 3, The Headmasters, Masterforce, Victory, Zone, etc. The first episode opens with a big celebration of the new millennium in New York City.

Fire Convoy, Gigatron, and their respective teams are all time travelers who came from the far future, roughly near the time period of Beast Wars Neo. Granted, the show is never explicit about that fact, only ever vaguely alluding to it once when the first OOPArt is found (Fire Convoy recognizes what it is and questions how it's possible for it to exist "in this time", implying that he's familiar with it and that it to shouldn't exist in the year 2000), but such was originally implicated in the first Japanese toy catalog for the Car Robots line.

The catalog also indicated that Fire Convoy's team did actually follow Gigatron and his Destrongers to Earth after getting wind of Gigatron's plans to head there; the show just reveals that Autobots got there first and were lying in wait for the Destrongers to appear and make their first move.

Though, I should probably point out that none of this is true of the English dub version, which changed a lot of things to make it its own unique continuity unconnected to anything else.

Wait a second. So, canonically, this takes place after Transformers Season 2? I've been giving them a pass with the dates as this is a cartoon tying in with a series going on for ages, but this makes even less sense to me.

I mean, Cody should definitely recognize the Autobots because Cybertron really was in Earth's orbit. Autobot City is definitely a thing that exists and there's just no way I can suspend my disbelief enough to imagine that a kid wouldn't be interested in giant, transforming alien robots.

But also, the Cybernet is even more of a problem. Because I guess it's just lying low during all this time? Was it built in secret? How long did it take the Build Team to make exactly!? It's such a terrible element to add to the show.

I guess we're supposed to imaging that Fire Convoy contacted Optimus Prime and told him not to worry about Gigatron. Which would be fine, TBH. Standard superhero logic, really. Although Gigs never bumped into any present-day Autobots. But, then, why is he an Autobot and not a Maximal? Does his team just like the retro look? (I know the real life reason of course)

TBH, this kinda reminds me of how Capcom handled the Megaman Legends franchise. It doesn't really connect with anything at all and years later they set it at the very end of the franchise saying "yeah, everything flooded." without it really making much sense in the grand scheme of things. And the same seems true here. There doesn't seem to be any real link between this and G1. It just seems like it's been tossed into that gap era without much thought or care. It doesn't add a thing to G1 lore. And G1 doesn't add a thing to it.

Even that specific turn of phrase regarding the OOPArt) could mean what it does on the surface. That the OOPArt was out of it's place in time without Fire Convoy being from the future. That could easily have been kept early-draft cutting-room-floor stuff. Like that crap about G1 Megatron raiding a bio lab and gaining a croc form.

I thought it was supposed to be after Victory, years de damned, but if it really is pre-movie then ... yeah, terrible stuff. Terrible and pointless. Make a special anniversary episode where Black Convoy meets G1 Convoy or something. I dunno what, but something. There's a lot of interesting things you can do if you decide to play with the timeline like that. But them being at that point in the timeline just for shits and giggles seems just utterly pointless to me.

Gonna try not to let that affect the show itself for me. Because it definitely lowers it by quite a bit. Sometimes they should let things go. Back of the box stuff can be it's own non canon micro world sometimes. It woulda been fine.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I mean, Cody

"Koji" in the dub, "Yuki" in Car Robots.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:should definitely recognize the Autobots because Cybertron really was in Earth's orbit.

He's only a grade-schooler, most likely born in the 90s after all the weird stuff in G1 seasons 1-2 already happened in the 80s. At the oldest, I'd say he's only around 10 or 11 (the dub aged him up to be a teenager whose voice has already deepened).

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Autobot City is definitely a thing that exists

...No it doesn't? At least, not yet. It didn't first appear until TFTM in the year 2005; the Autobots only had the Ark in seasons 1-2 of the cartoon.

When the Transformers: Binaltech line (the Takara counterpart of Hasbro's Transformers: Alternators line) launched in 2003, each toy release included a chapter of a larger story set in the years 2003-2008, and the first chapter of the "Story of Binaltech" said that Autobot City was under construction in the year 2003. Then, a year later, the RobotMasters line had its own fiction that showed the development of Autobot City to still be underway (but much further along) in 2004, and also revealed that Brave Maximus (after returning to Earth after the end of Car Robots) was used as the starting point for Autobot City's construction, serving as the core of the city around which the rest of it was built (because in Japan, both Autobot City and Brave Maximus's city mode have the same name: "Cybertron City"). A rerelease of the Brave Maximus toy was even offered in the RobotMasters toyline as a contest prize, albeit renamed "Cybertron Base" (further insinuating that he was meant to be the headquarters used by the Autobots during RobotMasters).

Gauntlet101010 wrote:But also, the Cybernet is even more of a problem. Because I guess it's just lying low during all this time? Was it built in secret? How long did it take the Build Team to make exactly!? It's such a terrible element to add to the show.

I just figured it was destroyed (or at least severely damaged) in the finale, what with that massive explosion the final battle surging through it from the Earth's core all the way to the surface, as well as Devil Gigatron flooding another part of the Cybertron Net with lava in the penultimate episode.

Or if nothing else, it was probably just decommissioned after Fire Convoy's team ultimately left Earth. They're a group that has a lot of strict protocols and formalities on how they do things; I can imagine them having a sort of "leave no trace" policy when it comes to their tech and equipment (even ones actually built into other planets).

Of course, that admittedly does beg the question of why it was built in the first place. Well, truth be told, the Cybertron Net and the headquarters used by Fire Convoy's team aren't actually unique concepts created specifically for Car Robots. Back in 1986, Japan published a manga series for the G1 cartoon's first two seasons in TV Magazine, and the fourth chapter introduced a secret underground base for the G1 Autobots located beneath a parking garage exterior in Tokyo, Japan. This base had its walls lined with monitor screens and workstations with computer consoles all over the place. And to top it off, this base even had its own underground transit system called the Cybertron Road, which enabled the Autobots to travel all across the globe.

(NOTE: The first pic is from the official English translation by Viz Media, the second and third are from an old fan translation that's... not great, and incorrectly states that humans work at this base; they're actually robotic androids made to look like human security guards)




Compare:



Monitors everywhere and several human-sized workstations, despite no humans actually working there (Ai only ever used just one console throughout the entire series, with the rest of those workstations going unused). While not an exact match in artwork, the resemblance between the two both in concept and design aesthetic is remarkably uncanny. The cartoon version would merely be a simplification of the manga's more detailed artwork.

Now, I did mention the Cybertron Road (or "Autobot Road" in the English translations) earlier, and while Car Robots's Cybertron Net is very similar in concept, those two I don't actually believe to be one and the same. The Cybertron Road is said to be only 2500 meters below the surface, which would place it within the Earth's crust. Meanwhile, the first episode of Car Robots states that the Cybertron Net runs through Earth's mantle. Since the Earth's crust is about 70 kilometers deep, the Cybertron Road being 2500 meters underground would only be 2.5 kilometers down. Whereas the Cybertron Net being inside the mantle would put it way down, far below where the Cybertron Road would be.



Plus, Episode 21 of Car Robots also has Build Boy confirm that he and the other Buildmasters are the ones who built the Cybertron Net in the first place, and they didn't come to Earth until 2000, when the manga is set during the late 1980s. Though, it is still possible that the Buildmasters could have used the Cybertron Road as a springboard for the Cybertron Net, and simply incorporated it when they built the Cybertron Net.

Nevertheless, I do remain firmly convinced that the Japanese base seen in this story would go on to become the same one used by Fire Convoy's team in Car Robots over a decade later. Or at the very least, served as the direct design inspiration for the Car Robots base.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I guess we're supposed to imaging that Fire Convoy contacted Optimus Prime and told him not to worry about Gigatron. Which would be fine, TBH. Standard superhero logic, really. Although Gigs never bumped into any present-day Autobots.

Yyyyeah, the lack of any G1 Transformers on Earth in Car Robots is a major oddity. And it seems some of the folks at Takara over in Japan agreed with that and set out to make sense of it.

In 2003, a four-chapter manga series written and drawn by Naoto Tsushima was published in Super Robot Magazine, in the final four issues before the magazine went under. Titled "Transformers: Star Gate Sen'eki" (the official Romanization is the grammatically-awkward "The Battle of Star Gate", TFWiki opted for "The Battle of the Star Gate", and the fan translation by Andrew "Hydra" Hall went with the most natural-sounding title of "The Stargate Battles"), this four-part G1 manga story was a rarity in its own right, being one of the very few pieces of Transformers media that existed solely as a storytelling medium and did not in any way advertise any toys released contemporaneously to its publication. As such, it was arguably the most mature piece of Japanese Transformers fiction ever produced, telling a story that was rich in emotion, thought-provoking moments, and even some bold and dynamic action sequences that felt meaningful.

Anyway, the significance of The Stargate Battles in relation to Car Robots is that it told a story set in the late 1990s just a few years before Car Robots began. And like Car Robots, The Stargate Battles brought up the notion that the existence of the Transformers on Earth were still not widely known outside of the United States. It's a pretty big gaffe, yeah, but it also led to some really suspenseful drama during the first chapter. But most importantly of all, the final chapter ended with an absolutely massive battle in space high above the Earth, a battle whose ending was so cataclysmic that virtually all of the G1 Autobots and Decepticons who had been stationed on Earth since 1985 in the G1 cartoon were knocked offline and vanished from the Earth; their disappearance done in such a way that what happened to them all was left a complete mystery to most of humanity. The story ended with the vague promise that the Transformers would likely return, but probably not for a while, almost as if to deliberately allow Car Robots to slot in right after these events.

Of further note is that Naoto Tsushima would continue to work with Transformers following the conclusion of The Stargate Battles. He would go on to write and draw the RobotMasters fiction (which made the aforementioned connection between Brave Maximus and Autobot City), and draw (but not write) the Binaltech Asterisk web comics (which featured two human characters who were directly tied to Car Robots).

And speaking of RobotMasters, the Decepticon tow truck Wrecker Hook from that series is actually the very same Autobot Wrecker Hook from Car Robots, having joined with the Decepticons after they found him basically left for dead in a non-functional state and completely amnesiac, at some point after Fire Convoy's team had departed from Earth; a backstory mystery that has never been explored to this day.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:But, then, why is he an Autobot and not a Maximal? Does his team just like the retro look? (I know the real life reason of course)

The running theory is that Fire Convoy's team simply adopted the old insignia in order to better blend in with the time period, whereas the Destrongers just didn't care about blending in or lining up with history and so kept their insignia instead of using (though, you can't even see any insignia on them since their animation models didn't have any, so for them it's kind of a moot point).

Though, as for why the Combatrons use an upside-down as , Unite Warriors would reveal that the time period their ship came from was the G2 era (the pic I posted above with the Combatrons captured and standing over a giant vat of green liquid has a bunch of G2 Autobots in the background, and all of which were G2 toys never released in Japan, interestingly enough).

Gauntlet101010 wrote:There doesn't seem to be any real link between this and G1. It just seems like it's been tossed into that gap era without much thought or care. It doesn't add a thing to G1 lore. And G1 doesn't add a thing to it.

It does kinda show where Autobot City got its beginning with Brave Maximus. Or rather, where "Cybertron City" got its beginning with "Cybertron City".

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I thought it was supposed to be after Victory, years de damned, but if it really is pre-movie then ... yeah, terrible stuff. Terrible and pointless. Make a special anniversary episode where Black Convoy meets G1 Convoy or something. I dunno what, but something. There's a lot of interesting things you can do if you decide to play with the timeline like that. But them being at that point in the timeline just for shits and giggles seems just utterly pointless to me.

Japan did get this art piece published in May 2000, which was the month Car Robots episodes 5-9 premiered over there (and was long before Brave Max made his debut in October-November, so that background was unknowingly-at-the-time some major foreshadowing):