Twincast / Podcast Episode #78 "Dramatis Personae"

Everyone in Podcast hates on the G1 cartoon.

Then they say Prowl is awesome because 'it is like he walked off the cartoon'.

If the cartoon was crap then your MP Prowl is crap. Unless you are admitting that the G1 TV series had good mech design. Then, we start admitting that the original cartoon HAD good points to it, which admitting something good about the G1 cartoon is anathema to Beast Wars fans. Combined with the excellent voice acting, this is what gives us G1 fans our fond memories of the cartoon. Memories, the G1 haters will never have. I am the first to admit that the 1 episode story arcs are very dated and don't translate well in our modern time. I still enjoy them, but that is just me. You don't have to enjoy the cartoon. But don't collect G1 MPs while bashing on (what is sometimes) their only shining piece of fiction. Again, Prowl comes to mind.

Granted, Beast Wars had Megatron in a bathtub with a rubber ducky, but oh it is so cool and dark unlike the wonky G1 cartoon. Wait, that is Beast Machines, and no one liked that.

You all talk about how awesome the Vince DiCola soundtrack was for the movie. Again, I thought the G1 cartoon had nothing redeemable about it. Oh, the movie was cool.

I really question the G1 haters. Of course, if you defend G1 you are now a GEEWUNNER.

man they can hate on g1 all they want, and they can buy the figures... they dont have to like the show to enjoy the figures... and they sure as hell dont have to listen to your fanboy rant

and the only thing everyone can agree with on G1 is that it started it all

Look I love G1, but I would never consider myself a 'geewunner'.

And I can accept that while I have watched the G1 cartoons over and over and over again, along with the movie that there is a considerable lack of good storytelling.

Were they fun? Did they get me interested? FOR SURE! Did I love it? UH HUH.

Can I think critically about it and compare it to current media without necessarily coming blindly to the conclusion that G1 is the best toon ever ? YES.

I have a near complete Armada/Micron Legend toy collection and love it with a damn passion. The cartoon on the other hand was a turd at times, and while it did have some strong pts it is still a turd. Does that make me any less
of a fan? No. I dont have to like everything of something within each medium. If cartoons have such priority on how much someone can like the toys then what about the comics? It is as much G1 as the toys and cartoon.

People have varying opinions and thats what makes the hobby awesome. What isnt awesome is trying to shoehorn people into binaries, "if you dont like the cartoon, you're a this". Thats just dumb. Be glad this franchise is actually this strong and be happy with what we have and what we are getting.

First, everyone is arguing what they wish I said rather than what I said. I never said G1 episodes were the epitome of Transformers writing. It is better than Energon imo so I felt that calling G1 the worst piece of fiction was unfair. It isn't like G1 influences every other piece of fiction ever also, so it had to have some good ideas. I understand the hate of all things G1 is strong (except MPs) but note that a lot of us loved these characters and designs before the MP and don't need the MP to like them which is the impression I am under here.

As the say haters gonna hate. Just don't pretend that other media like Beast Wars also hasn't aged horribly.

@burning_sirius:

Calm yourself down, man. They weren't hating on every single aspect of the cartoon as a whole. They didn't say the entire thing was "irredeemable". They only spoke of the storytelling and lack of character development as things they felt could have been better. And in many respects, that is true. The G1 cartoon did not really have that many well developed characters. It had plenty of archetypes and memorable one-offers, but as far as overarching, ongoing character exploration and growth, it had very little time and opportunity to do so due to how busy it was trying to promote at least 177 toys. Though not all at once, but still in large quantities within 22-minute intervals.

One can still appreciate the cartoon's character designs and music while feeling the show lacked in the character development department.


Though, one thing more in your post does stand out to me:

burning_sirius wrote:But don't collect G1 MPs while bashing on (what is sometimes) their only shining piece of fiction. Again, Prowl comes to mind.

I'm sorry, but Prowl's popularity as a character stems far from just his cartoon appearances. Rather, it owes far more to his IDW comic appearances, in which he has been a major player since the very beginning back in 2005.

Has anyone else noticed how bare-bones the MP Prowl toy feels in regards to accessories compared to those of all the other MPs? I mean, let's look at this:

• MP-1 Convoy - Ion blaster, Autobot Matrix of Leadership, gun-mode Megatron, Megatron's scope, stock and silencer, energon-axe, cardboard trailer
• MP-2 Ultra Magnus - Everything MP-1 had
• MP-3 Starscream - 2 null rays, 2 missile racks, Doctor Arkeville pilot figurine, gun clip, two-piece display stand
• MP-4 Convoy Perfect Edition - everything MP-1 had, plus a new Trailer/Combat Deck
• MP-5 Megatron - Fusion cannon, energon mace, energy dagger, laser pistol, Kremzeek figure
• MP-6 Skywarp - Everything MP-3 had
• MP-7 Thundercracker - Everything MP-3 had
• MP-8 Grimlock - Energo sword, twin 'stunner' lasers rifle, waiter apron, waiter bow tie, waiter tray, 7 unique waiter glasses, intelligence transfer helmet
• MP-9 Rodimus Convoy - Trailer/Mobile Defense Bay, Photon Eliminator/Photon Lasers Alpha & Beta, Matrix of Leadership, buzzsaw, welding torch
• MP-10 Convoy - Ion blaster, Matrix of Leadership, energon-axe, trailer/Combat Deck, Roller, Spike Witwicky figurine
• MP-11 Starscream - Crown, pauldrons (left and right), cape, 2 null rays, hologram pilot figurine
• MP-12 Lambor - Missile launcher, flare gun, two pile drivers (A), two pile drivers (B, Amazon.co.jp only)
• MP-13 Soundave - Condor, Condor "case", energon cube & lid (three in total in the Amazon.co.jp version), display panel, concussion blaster, Megatron gun (consists of pistol, scope, silencer, & stock), sensor
• MP-14 Alert - Laser gun, rocket launcher, 2 head electric sparks
• MP-15 Rumble & Jaguar - Two piledrivers, piledriver mount, Left & right "Thruster Guns", two pink tape cases
• MP-16 Frenzy & Buzzsaw - Everything MP-15 had
• MP-17 Prowl - Semi-automatic Rifle, Missile Launcher (Amazon.co.jp only)

Two accessories. Two. And that's only if one is able to get the exclusive missile launcher, leaving everyone else stuck with just a measly gun weapon.

Know why Prowl's arsenal is so limited compared to all the others'? It's because Prowl wasn't a memorable character from the cartoon. He didn't do anything memorable and was barely utilized as his own person. He had no quirks or gimmicks to be exploited, and didn't even get his own "sell this toy" spotlight episode. The most that happened to him people can recall is the one time he was controlled like a puppet by Chip Chase, which is more impressive for Chip than it is for Prowl.

If ten years ago we were told about the prospect of a Masterpiece Prowl toy, I doubt there would have been much commotion made about it beyond the simple fact that it would have been yet another Masterpiece toy (which the very concept in and of itself was a big deal back then). But in this day and age, the hype over Prowl as a character comes from his "by-the-book stiff" persona that IDW brought to life and has been thoroughly developing for the past eight or so years.


Also, regarding the whole jab at the Beast Era you made, people liking it solely because it was "darker and edgier" is a fallacy.

Sabrblade wrote:*something something* accessories *something*

But in this day and age, the hype over Prowl as a character comes from his "by-the-book stiff" persona that IDW brought to life and has been thoroughly developing for the past eight or so years.

He really needs a table accessory, with 'flipping action'.

Hey Saber,

Prowl played a big roll in the marvel comics. I was not being mean. I just felt a bit of malice from the podcast. I just said I enjoyed the cartoon for what I felt were legit reasons. It just felt weird they dissed G1 as the worst only to praise prowl for coming off the cartoon.

Also Japan has a different dynamic than the US given how popular Diaclone was. But I took the bait in responding to just how mean the podcast was to us old school fans, it felt like contempt.

I am completely fine if people don't like G1. We are a big boat. I am glad to just talk about TFs but I wanted to give my best defence.

Va'al wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:*something something* accessories *something*

Va'al wrote:He really needs a table accessory, with 'flipping action'.

Yes.

I don't see how you could make a 'legitimate' Sunstreaker from the MP-12 mold. That would be like making a Motormaster figure out of the MP-10 mold. I vote they continue to do the MP figs right or don't even bother.

Kibble wrote:I don't see how you could make a 'legitimate' Sunstreaker from the MP-12 mold.

I think a heavy remold might be able to work. A very, very heavy remold.

ScottyP wrote:

Kibble wrote:I don't see how you could make a 'legitimate' Sunstreaker from the MP-12 mold.

I think a heavy remold might be able to work. A very, very heavy remold.

What is there that's similar enough between the two for them to use the same mold (retooled or otherwise)?

I don't know how they'd possibly get the hood to be his feet, much less split in two. And if they go that far, I don't know if it's really a retool any more. If they can use some of the Sideswipe mold for parts, more power to them, I guess...just don't half ass it and give us Tigertrack with a Sunstreaker head and a big ass engine on the back of alt mode. Then it's no longer MP.

You know, I truly forgot about the hood feet. Maybe forget what I said about a remold.

The 'Sunstreaker is a retool' argument is just so bad. He would have to be an entirely different mold.

This is the same for Jazz with Prowl. There were a lot of people saying 'Jazz is just a retool of Prowl'. They do not know what they are talking about.

Saber, I thought about Prowl's 'lack of accessories' but I feel as I always have felt. My earlier reply was mobile and some just quick jots. MP G1 is an homage to Diaclone. I feel they had to 'cut' Prowl for budgetary reasons (they wanted him within a certain price point) so they didn't give him his true shoulder cannons.

You cannot say that Prowl's sole source of popularity (or the only reason why he got a MP) was because of Post G1 comics. Why would Sideswipe, who was effectively dumped after the Furman run, chosen to get a MP. I always knew that Prowl was going to be next with discussions with my friends. Why? Because he is 84, he is 2nd in command of the Autobots and because he is a great Diaclone figure designed by Shoji Kawamori. I joked that when Takara got the licensing deal with Lamborghini, they deleted Prowl and worked on Sideswipe instantly.

Prowl is iconic. His face is the inspiration for the Autobot symbol. He is a classic mech design with two features that carried onto movie Bumblebee that is a hood chest and door wings. (This is why I don't like movie Bumblebee mind you).

Anyway, the earlier point was that what drives the whole sales of the MP line are people like me. People who enjoy and treasure either Diaclone or G1 (or both in my case). I treasure the fiction and really like Prowl. I always remember the orange smoke coming out of his face in the Movie and then knowing all bets were off when it came to deaths.

I just get annoyed with the G1 haters. Certainly, Energon is the worst Transformers series of all time, not the G1 cartoon. Arguably RID is the final 'Braves' series and thus is the spiritual successor of Transformers Victory and depending on how much you like Victory or Braves will determine your like of RID. Unicron Trilogy was just meh, Cybertron again revived the idea of Brave which is why I like it. The rest, no so much.

But the ideas, the characterizations all of it was rooted with Bob Budiansky, his bios and the really characterful voice acting of the G1 cartoon. How the show handles (or for a better phrase lack of handling) the plot definitely shows and its age isn't kind to it in that regard, but I feel in terms of being character driven, we got many great plots from the episodes (and horrible ones as well: Carnage in C Minor, BOT). Everyone seemed to argue that I was saying G1 the Cartoon was the best, and I wasn't. Likewise, the G1 era wasn't just the cartoon but also the comic, which everyone forgets and all the cool stories from it and how people like me who treasure a lot of characters like how the comic treated (and promoted) a lot of them beyond the cartoon like with Prowl.

Anyway, I guess we are just the dead horse to beat in the community. Want a take a cheap shot at any segment of the fandom? Do it to the G1 fans. Call them GEEWUNNERS. Call their posts fanboy rants. There are people who abuse this term. I am not a 'GEEWUNNER' but it is used by people who hate G1 against all people who like G1 or only like G1. Just because you only like G1 doesn't mean you are a GEEWUNNER. The rest of the fandom is immune from being prodded at in this manner (they don't get a catchy insult to apply to them). It is hard to get used because of the rich history of G1 and how it permeates every aspect of the brand. I love new stuff don't get me wrong.

I love Animated, I love Prime, I am meh about Beast Wars, and I grew up with it as a kid and everyone makes it more than what it is. But I am gradually getting used to the occasional not so subtle jabs at G1. I think Bayformer fans get more respect on here than we do, or at least people are not as malicious with it (maybe because of bitterness with another person idk). There is a difference between a good laugh and a sharp barb.

Tigertrack wrote:Look I love G1, but I would never consider myself a 'geewunner'.

And I can accept that while I have watched the G1 cartoons over and over and over again, along with the movie that there is a considerable lack of good storytelling.

Were they fun? Did they get me interested? FOR SURE! Did I love it? UH HUH.

Can I think critically about it and compare it to current media without necessarily coming blindly to the conclusion that G1 is the best toon ever ? YES.

I never said it was THE BEST. Animated and Prime are far better with plot. Some other things are up in the air and contested like mech design. I am a sucker for classic Japanese robots.

You are arguing with me what you wished I said rather than what I said. My comment wasn't a rant. I was just giving some of my opinions when I came across that part of the podcast. It felt like a sucker punch. I gave an example of another thing that hasn't aged well, Beast Wars. The graphics are really really dated and it hurts it. With G1 it is the plot that hasn't aged well, with Beast Wars, its the animation. Yet no one sucker punches Beast Wars for its dated graphics/animation then call their fans basically idiots for liking it. However, G1's animation has aged very well (when there isn't an animation error mind you). Its very classic. I like it.

And I am not saying you should like G1 or anyone on here should. In fact the whole Transformers community could hate G1, it doesn't effect me. We are a big boat of fans and its cool that we all like transforming robots regardless of the era. That is how I feel at least.

Dammit ... I feel like there are some major misunderstandings about the podcast staff's views on G1. I loathe the term "geewunners". People who use that term are most likely blind to the fact that just about everything in today's market was spawned from G1. I love the G1 cartoon. I know these guys do as well. But we do not just blindly love it. G1 has a TON of flaws. But I love it, flaws and all, and I imagine just about everyone on the podcast feels the same way. The flaws are part of its enduring and entertaining value to this day.

I'm listening to the podcast right now so that I can piece together the misunderstandings some of you guys are having with what was said.

At the end of the day, you're either a Transformers fan or you're not.

Splintering the fandom into smaller segments based on what you like, what you don't like, which iteration you grew up with ... it's just plain silly.

There is no one single iteration that is perfect. G1 gets so much attention, not just because it was the first, but because a lot of the people currently working in the media industry that brings us comics, cartoons etc grew up with it.

I accept the G1 cartoon for what it was - a great and unique cartoon for its time which is still fun to watch if you don't take it too seriously. It's unfair to compare it to newer shows too much because animation and storytelling have both changed. Having said that, there's aspects about Transformers Prime I don't like, from the most annoying cast of TF humans I've ever seen to a pretty weird Unicron angle. There will never be a perfect Transformers show but I am glad they are still making them, and that would have never happened without G1 laying the groundwork.

Missed this post:

burning_sirius wrote:Hey Saber,

Prowl played a big roll in the marvel comics.

Sorta. Twas mostly in the UK stuff and after he came back to life via Nucleon near the comic's end. Other than that, he was kinda just like what Jazz was to Optimus in the cartoon. He had a presence, but wasn't used that much.

With that said,

burning_sirius wrote:Saber, I thought about Prowl's 'lack of accessories' but I feel as I always have felt. My earlier reply was mobile and some just quick jots. MP G1 is an homage to Diaclone. I feel they had to 'cut' Prowl for budgetary reasons (they wanted him within a certain price point) so they didn't give him his true shoulder cannons.

But that's just it, Prowl didn't have the shoulder cannons in the cartoon. For maximum show-accuracy (which the MPs strive towards), Prowl must be "shoulder cannon-less".

burning_sirius wrote:You cannot say that Prowl's sole source of popularity (or the only reason why he got a MP) was because of Post G1 comics.

Good thing I didn't. All I said was that the IDW version is the most popular version, implying that all versions of Prowl have some fondness to them, with IDW's Prowl simply having the most.

burning_sirius wrote:Why would Sideswipe, who was effectively dumped after the Furman run, chosen to get a MP.

For Sideswipe to be the MP of the 1984 Autobot Cars, many suspected it was because of his being a red car Autobot made for the best marketability. But, I know not of the actual reasoning behind it and can only guess.

burning_sirius wrote:he is 2nd in command of the Autobots

Thanks to non-cartoon sources since Jazz and Ironhide fulfilled that role more than he did in the cartoon.

burning_sirius wrote:I joked that when Takara got the licensing deal with Lamborghini, they deleted Prowl and worked on Sideswipe instantly.

LOL

burning_sirius wrote:Prowl is iconic. His face is the inspiration for the Autobot symbol. He is a classic mech design with two features that carried onto movie Bumblebee that is a hood chest and door wings.

Indeed. His design is great, but his character didn't really stand out until IDW got their hands on him. Or at least until Furman brought him back from the dead to argue and bicker with Grimlock in late Marvel G1 (long after the cartoon was over).

burning_sirius wrote:I just get annoyed with the G1 haters.

If you haven't checked it out yet, I'd recommend looking into this topic, as it relates to such a matter as this.

burning_sirius wrote:Certainly, Energon is the worst Transformers series of all time, not the G1 cartoon.

Yup.

burning_sirius wrote:Arguably RID is the final 'Braves' series and thus is the spiritual successor of Transformers Victory and depending on how much you like Victory or Braves will determine your like of RID.

I like RiD. Moreso than Victory, though.

burning_sirius wrote:Likewise, the G1 era wasn't just the cartoon but also the comic, which everyone forgets and all the cool stories from it and how people like me who treasure a lot of characters like how the comic treated (and promoted) a lot of them beyond the cartoon like with Prowl.

There's also the post-1980s G1 fiction like from Dreamwave and, of course, IDW.

burning_sirius wrote:Anyway, I guess we are just the dead horse to beat in the community. Want a take a cheap shot at any segment of the fandom? Do it to the G1 fans. Call them GEEWUNNERS. Call their posts fanboy rants. There are people who abuse this term. I am not a 'GEEWUNNER' but it is used by people who hate G1 against all people who like G1 or only like G1. Just because you only like G1 doesn't mean you are a GEEWUNNER. The rest of the fandom is immune from being prodded at in this manner (they don't get a catchy insult to apply to them). It is hard to get used because of the rich history of G1 and how it permeates every aspect of the brand. I love new stuff don't get me wrong.

I love Animated, I love Prime, I am meh about Beast Wars, and I grew up with it as a kid and everyone makes it more than what it is. But I am gradually getting used to the occasional not so subtle jabs at G1. I think Bayformer fans get more respect on here than we do, or at least people are not as malicious with it (maybe because of bitterness with another person idk). There is a difference between a good laugh and a sharp barb.

If you love anything non-G1 in addition to G1, you are no Geewunner.

A Geewunner is simply any fan who loves only G1 and despises any and all things to come after it. But seeing as you like Animated and Prime, you don't fall into that category and shouldn't be labeled with such a derogatory term.

burning_sirius wrote:I gave an example of another thing that hasn't aged well, Beast Wars. The graphics are really really dated and it hurts it. With G1 it is the plot that hasn't aged well, with Beast Wars, its the animation. Yet no one sucker punches Beast Wars for its dated graphics/animation then call their fans basically idiots for liking it. However, G1's animation has aged very well (when there isn't an animation error mind you). Its very classic. I like it.

In my case, I like Beast Wars' 90's CG animation since it has a certain charm and retro feel to it. I even like the animation much-hated Voltron: The Third Dimension cartoon.

What many people who criticize the animation of fully-CG cartoons fail to realize is that they're not supposed to look like real life since they're cartoons. Cartoons are supposed to resemble cartoons. If one wants to make something that looks like live action, then they'd just be better off making it in live action (and perhaps with CGI as an aid to the live action, rather than as its superior).

Epic Bob comment at 39:29!

Interesting topic Saber! Thanks for the link. Its interesting to get their perspective on the franchise. I didn't want to over react or start something but I wanted to be a part of the discussion with respect to G1 vs GEEWUN vs G1 hate. The reactions are all over the place. I definitely put RID/Unicron Trilogy's mech design near G1, yet people hated the G1 'mech' design over RID (even though RID cannibalized many G1 figures) and Armada (which were not as clean with all their animated kibble for all to see... 100% show accuracy!). Others like the Bayverse and its more 'organic?' feeling TFs. I can see that. Bayformers is definitely the most unique aesthetic in Transformers so there isn't going to be much over lap from them with those who are fans of G1.

Anyway, thanks for being bros. I didn't want to be 'that guy' who stunk up a thread. I just wanted a legit discussion on something that popped up in the podcast.

Note, I liked the rest of the entire podcast. You all did a great job! You inspired me to do some things I was thinking about doing to help focus/trim my collection. You all are the only tf podcast I listen to anyway.

void

damn is this sight slow, and im on a 100 mb connection

VioMeTriX wrote:
where was sunstreaker anywhere in the topic? and you ask a question that has been beat to death... but again, where do you see sunstreaker mentioned in any way in ths topic?

In his defense, it is brought up briefly (very briefly) in the show

And to answer Mike's question ... Bulkhead.

Seibertron wrote:And to answer Mike's question ... Bulkhead.

But we need to know why

ScottyP wrote:

Seibertron wrote:And to answer Mike's question ... Bulkhead.

But we need to know why

Because I've really grown to like him over the past 5 years since his introduction to the fandom. I didn't really care much for Bulkhead at first (he was just a big dumb oaf) but because my wife liked him after being introduced to him in Animated way back in 2008 and at BotCon 2008, I gave him a second chance. I really started to like him by the end of Animated. Once Prime came around though and he was no longer the "dumb" guy, my liking of the Bulkhead character grew greatly. It's been a long time since Ironhide has had any spotlight in the main characters. I like Ironhide, he's one of my favorite all-time characters, but as far as characterization goes, Bulkhead wins for the moment.

So far, I like...everything about this thread.

burning_sirius wrote:Everyone in Podcast hates on the G1 cartoon.

Then they say Prowl is awesome because 'it is like he walked off the cartoon'.

After having listened to the entire podcast, I think it was just Bob that made the real anti-G1 comment. He's entitled to his opinion. I think there are enough of us that give far more praise to G1 than it actually deserves. Considering how much he loves the Unicron Trilogy, I personally take his opinion of G1 with a grain of salt (no offense Bob). G1 is no Shakespeare but it will always have a special place in our hearts.

Unless of course I'm missing something???

Seibertron wrote:

ScottyP wrote:

Seibertron wrote:And to answer Mike's question ... Bulkhead.

But we need to know why

Because I've really grown to like him over the past 5 years since his introduction to the fandom. I didn't really care much for Bulkhead at first (he was just a big dumb oaf) but because my wife liked him after being introduced to him in Animated way back in 2008 and at BotCon 2008, I gave him a second chance. I really started to like him by the end of Animated. Once Prime came around though and he was no longer the "dumb" guy, my liking of the Bulkhead character grew greatly. It's been a long time since Ironhide has had any spotlight in the main characters. I like Ironhide, he's one of my favorite all-time characters, but as far as characterization goes, Bulkhead wins for the moment.

I can agree with this, but I find that Animated Bulkhead's dumbness is part of his charm. Yes, he's dumb mostly for comedic purposes at first, but at the same time, he isn't Patrick Star levels of dumb (despite most perceptions of Bulkhead that stem from his being voiced by Patrick's actor) and comes to show his own breed of smarts. It's later even revealed that he's not only a technical genius, but Cybertron's most profound technician in space bridge construction. An unexpected revelation that really worked in the guy's favor.

Now, I honestly do wish I could give the same praise to Prime Bulkhead, but I just... can't. I know many were relieved to see that Prime Bulkhead didn't have the more simple mind of his Animated counterpart, but for that felt like a letdown, as I felt that was part of the original character's charm and appeal. Without it, though, he felt a bit more generic and less interesting. The most he had going for him now was his having once been a Wrecker, but that was only lightly touched upon and usually only in Wheeljack's presence. Most of the time, his fighting style didn't seem to differ between his Team Prime style and his Wrecker style. He was just "the big guy" now instead of "the lovable oaf w/ hidden geniusness". The latter just feels more interesting while the latter has been done many times over.

Sabrblade wrote:

Seibertron wrote:

ScottyP wrote:

Seibertron wrote:And to answer Mike's question ... Bulkhead.

But we need to know why

Because I've really grown to like him over the past 5 years since his introduction to the fandom. I didn't really care much for Bulkhead at first (he was just a big dumb oaf) but because my wife liked him after being introduced to him in Animated way back in 2008 and at BotCon 2008, I gave him a second chance. I really started to like him by the end of Animated. Once Prime came around though and he was no longer the "dumb" guy, my liking of the Bulkhead character grew greatly. It's been a long time since Ironhide has had any spotlight in the main characters. I like Ironhide, he's one of my favorite all-time characters, but as far as characterization goes, Bulkhead wins for the moment.

I can agree with this, but I find that Animated Bulkhead's dumbness is part of his charm. Yes, he's dumb mostly for comedic purposes at first, but at the same time, he isn't Patrick Star levels of dumb (despite most perceptions of Bulkhead that stem from his being voiced by Patrick's actor) and comes to show his own breed of smarts. It's later even revealed that he's not only a technical genius, but Cybertron's most profound technician in space bridge construction. An unexpected revelation that really worked in the guy's favor.

Now, I honestly do wish I could give the same praise to Prime Bulkhead, but I just... can't. I know many were relieved to see that Prime Bulkhead didn't have the more simple mind of his Animated counterpart, but for that felt like a letdown, as I felt that was part of the original character's charm and appeal. Without it, though, he felt a bit more generic and less interesting. The most he had going for him now was his having once been a Wrecker, but that was only lightly touched upon and usually only in Wheeljack's presence. Most of the time, his fighting style didn't seem to differ between his Team Prime style and his Wrecker style. He was just "the big guy" now instead of "the lovable oaf w/ hidden geniusness". The latter just feels more interesting while the latter has been done many times over.

I agree with you on Prime Bulkhead. It would be like making Lugnut, without his blind loyalty. Prime Bulkhead, while one of the better characters, was a lot more generic than the Animated Bulkhead I had come to love. Animated Bulkhead was his own character, while Prime Bulkhead was the Ironhide-alike.

Good episode guys.

im getting that those who dont like the G1 has never grew up with it as a kid and therefore has no appreciation and cant understand what the show ment to us that did watch it at the ages of 5-12 so i say to all the G1 haters they are not really true Transformers fans if they cant accept all the Transformers eras have a special place of there own to be appreciated, true G1 will be my favorite as others like me will say but i like things about every other line that was been out since, just as i dont like some things about G1 some toy designs and a couple episodes that were not good quality but i say that with all the other lines too
so G1 haters GET YOUR HEADS OUTTA YOUR ASS!!!!

[quote="Seibertron"][/quote]

Hey Ryan! El Rio Grande is an awesome bar! Those Frozen margaritas are deadly. They're have one too many and you'll blackout. Great place for happy hour in the summer

mooncake623 wrote:

Seibertron wrote:

Hey Ryan! El Rio Grande is an awesome bar! Those Frozen margaritas are deadly. They're have one too many and you'll blackout. Great place for happy hour in the summer

No kidding! Man did those knock me unexpectedly on my ass that night. I knew it was coming too and drank a ton of water to no avail. Scary stuff how strong those are.

I have to stick up for myself a little after listening to the hard time the Podcast crew was giving me. I could hardly understand what they were saying to me on Skype on my phone because of all of the noise on the street. It's a miracle I was able to hear anything. There was a garbage truck literally right in front of me in front of Japas 38 on 38th. I kept think I'd duck around the corner to go in an alley like in Chicago but there's no escape from the noise on the streets in New York City. Cars going by, people talking, garbage trucks at all hours. I should have excused myself from the call but I wanted to spout off about AOE Optimus Prime, NYC, Matthew Reinhart's popup book and all of the other cool stuff that was happening in NYC.

I'm sure the margaritas at El Rio Grande didn't help much with the noise and doing a Skype podcast, but thanks for bearing with me everyone!

@mooncake623 ... do you live in NYC? Maybe I should plan a Seibertron.com bar outting at Toy Fair or next year when I'm back for NYC.

Seibertron wrote:

mooncake623 wrote:

Seibertron wrote:

Hey Ryan! El Rio Grande is an awesome bar! Those Frozen margaritas are deadly. They're have one too many and you'll blackout. Great place for happy hour in the summer

No kidding! Man did those knock me unexpectedly on my ass that night. I knew it was coming too and drank a ton of water to no avail. Scary stuff how strong those are.

I have to stick up for myself a little after listening to the hard time the Podcast crew was giving me. I could hardly understand what they were saying to me on Skype on my phone because of all of the noise on the street. It's a miracle I was able to hear anything. There was a garbage truck literally right in front of me in front of Japas 38 on 38th. I kept think I'd duck around the corner to go in an alley like in Chicago but there's no escape from the noise on the streets in New York City. Cars going by, people talking, garbage trucks at all hours. I should have excused myself from the call but I wanted to spout off about AOE Optimus Prime, NYC, Matthew Reinhart's popup book and all of the other cool stuff that was happening in NYC.

I'm sure the margaritas at El Rio Grande didn't help much with the noise and doing a Skype podcast, but thanks for bearing with me everyone!

@mooncake623 ... do you live in NYC? Maybe I should plan a Seibertron.com bar outting at Toy Fair or next year when I'm back for NYC.

Hahaha it was all very entertaining! I live in Brooklyn but work around midtown. Seibertron.com bar outing @ toy fair sounds like a great idea! I'am definitely down for that.

I don't hate G1 so much as I won't choose G1 if another alternative is available. It, like many early to mid 80's cartoons, is plagued with NAKED COMMERCIALISM and an infuriating amount of continuity errors. It's hard to watch because it grates on my sense of correctness. I loved it when younger but as an old man, G1 has not aged well for me.

Ryan, I never said I was a fan of the Unicron Trilogy fiction, just a fan of most of Armada. The current IDW fiction and Furman's -ion and Spotlight stuff is my favorite by leagues. I seek epic, interconnected stories and great character evolution. That stuff has it in spades.

mooncake623 wrote:

Seibertron wrote:@mooncake623 ... do you live in NYC? Maybe I should plan a Seibertron.com bar outting at Toy Fair or next year when I'm back for NYC.

Hahaha it was all very entertaining! I live in Brooklyn but work around midtown. Seibertron.com bar outing @ toy fair sounds like a great idea! I'am definitely down for that.

I live on the Upper West Side. Can I invite myself to this Seibertron.com outing?

Connecting with some NYC TF fans would definitely make for a good time.

Seibertron wrote:I love the G1 cartoon. I know these guys do as well. But we do not just blindly love it. G1 has a TON of flaws. But I love it, flaws and all, and I imagine just about everyone on the podcast feels the same way. The flaws are part of its enduring and entertaining value to this day.

Honestly, I think this is all that needs to be said on the matter.

The entire Drunk Ryan segment had me laughing non-stop while setting up to open my workplace this morning. I'm glad nobody could hear me, they woulda thought I was insane or something. Definitely my second favourite version of Ryan (after the black repaint exclusive version, of course)

Ultra Markus wrote:im getting that those who dont like the G1 has never grew up with it as a kid and therefore has no appreciation and cant understand what the show ment to us that did watch it at the ages of 5-12

There are plenty of folks on this site who did grow up with the G1 cartoon but don't hold it to the same standard now as they once did as children. There are many aspects of the show that have simply not aged well, such as the lack of character development, the obvious commercialism of the plots, and the numerous animation errors.

I liked the G1 cartoon as a preteen and still enjoy it to a point, but I accept that it was an imperfect product and contains many things that are more guilty pleasures than signs of legitimate quality.

Ultra Markus wrote:so i say to all the G1 haters they are not really true Transformers fans if they cant accept all the Transformers eras have a special place of there own to be appreciated,

There's no such thing as a "True Transformers Fan".

Razorclaw0000 wrote:I don't hate G1 so much as I won't choose G1 if another alternative is available. It, like many early to mid 80's cartoons, is plagued with NAKED COMMERCIALISM and an infuriating amount of continuity errors. It's hard to watch because it grates on my sense of correctness. I loved it when younger but as an old man, G1 has not aged well for me.

Ryan, I never said I was a fan of the Unicron Trilogy fiction, just a fan of most of Armada. The current IDW fiction and Furman's -ion and Spotlight stuff is my favorite by leagues. I seek epic, interconnected stories and great character evolution. That stuff has it in spades.

And every other piece of TF fiction is NAKED COMMERCIALISM? With the new comics coming out and everyone getting new bodies to match with the toys and the comic book getting basically its own toyline (an idea whose time has come and needed to for a while) is COMMERCIALISM. Face it, this is Transformers.

I don't see it that much honestly, especially in season 2 when they had more episodes to work with different characters.

Anyway, I just take them as self contained episodes with a loose continuity. It was definitely one of the firsts shows to try to advance the plot (the TF Movie) and came up with nearly every essential part of Transformers lore... AND if that doesn't wet your beak, just pick up the comic and say that you were a G1 comic guy and not a cartoon guy. G1 has something for everyone to like. We are all inclusive.

burning_sirius wrote:Anyway, I just take them as self contained episodes with a loose continuity. It was definitely one of the firsts shows to try to advance the plot (the TF Movie) and came up with nearly every essential part of Transformers lore... AND if that doesn't wet your beak, just pick up the comic and say that you were a G1 comic guy and not a cartoon guy. G1 has something for everyone to like. We are all inclusive.

If you are all inclusive... by all means, please, let it go and accept others' preferences.

burning_sirius wrote:I don't see it that much honestly, especially in season 2 when they had more episodes to work with different characters.

But... but season 2 was the one with the most commercialism in it.

"Autobot Spike" - focused on Autobot X, who had no toy
"Changing Gears" - advertised Gears
"City of Steel" - advertised the Constructicons
"Attack of the Autobots" - advertised Optimus
"Traitor" - advertised Mirage and the Insecticons
"The Immobilizer" - advertised Ironhide
"The Autobot Run" - advertised the toys' transforming gimmick in general
"Atlantis, Arise!" - advertised the Dinobots
"Day of the Machines" - advertised Optimus
"Enter the Nightbird" - focused on Nightbird, who had no toy
"A Prime Problem" - advertised Optimus
"The Core" - advertised the Constructicons
"The Insecticon Syndrome" - advertised the Insecticons
"Dinobot Island, Part 1" - advertised the Dinobots and all the new 1985 toys in general
"Dinobot Island, Part 2" - advertised the Dinobots and all the new 1985 toys in general
"The Master Builders" - advertised Grapple and Hoist
"Auto Berserk" - advertised Red Alert and Inferno
"Microbots" - advertised Perceptor
"Megatron's Master Plan, Part 1" - advertised the 1984-1985 Decepticon toys
"Megatron's Master Plan, Part 2" - advertised the 1984-1985 Decepticons toys
"Desertion of the Dinobots, Part 1" - advertised the Dinobots
"Desertion of the Dinobots, Part 2" - advertised the Dinobots
"Blaster Blues" - advertised Blaster and Cosmos
"A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" - focused on just the sheer fun of the episode
"The Golden Lagoon" - advertised Beachcomber
"The God Gambit" - advertised Astrotrain, Cosmos, and Omega Supreme
"Make Tracks" - advertised Tracks
"Child's Play" - advertised the toyline itself
"Quest for Survival" - advertised the Insecticons
"The Secret of Omega Supreme" - advertised Omega Supreme and the Constructicons
"The Gambler" - advertised Smokescreen
"Kremzeek!" - focused on Kremzeek, who had no toy at the time
"Sea Change" - advertised Seaspray
"Triple Takeover" - advertised Blitzwing and Astrotrain
"Prime Target" - advertised Optimus
"Auto-Bop" - advertised Tracks, Blaster, Soundwave, and the cassettes
"The Search for Alpha Trion" - focused on the female Autobots and Alpha Trion, who had no toys back then
"The Girl Who Loved Powerglide" - advertised Powerglide
"Hoist Goes Hollywood" - advertised Hoist
"The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 1" - advertised the Stunticons
"The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 2" - advertised the Stunticons and Aerialbots
"Aerial Assault" - advertised the Aerialbots and Combaticons
"War Dawn" - advertised the Aerialbots
"Trans-Europe Express" - advertised the Stunticons
"Cosmic Rust" - advertised Perceptor, the Aerialbots, and the Stunticons
"Starscream's Brigade" - advertised the Combaticons
"The Revenge of Bruticus" - advertised the Combaticons
"Masquerade" - advertised the Stunticons
"B.O.T." - advertised the Protectobots and the Combaticons

I've never been a very big fan of G1 and G1 fans can be extremely annoying and very single minded; prejudicial of series like Beast Wars, but I appreciate G1 for it is; the building blocks of what we have today.

Of course, I came from the Beast Wars era and learned all I could about G1 from watching the cameos including the Ark, Prime's head getting blown apart and Starscream's episode. Naturally to me G1 seemed to be this mythological, awesome series that Beast Wars was based off of.

Then I finally watched the Transformers movie; my first G1 experience and was like wtf... I was spoiled by Beast Wars animation and story telling, that I couldn't stand to watch it, now I can only watch G1 episodes when I'm feeling feverish, but will never hate it. G1 is the center of everything and all the original characters. Without Prime, there's no Primal.

That is why people can love MP Prowl for how much he looks like his generation one counterpart and hate the series. A lot of the G1 character designs are iconic, I had a couple of the figures passed down to me when I was little and whenever a more articulated one comes out, I want it. Even if it's one I've never had before.



The smaller cast and less gimmick-y shows are much more memorable. There are like, 150 or so Unicron triology episodes and it all blends together so terrible. Especially Energon/Superlink it seems like after the first 26 episodes it literally repeats itself.

Optimus always dies:

In Beast Wars when he exploded screaming his nemesis's name and it said; The End? That blew my mind and to this day, I still freeze frame my DVD to watch Optimus's severed head fly by.

When the Autobot base in Transformers Prime was blown apart by the Nemesis (ship) fusion cannon and you saw Prime's crippled arm, that was another iconic death scene. (Turned out he didn't die, but you left thinking he did)

In the Unicron triology when he dies, it's meh, it's part of the script guys. Last episodes are coming and we're just following one guy here. You knew it was coming.


The Unicron triology was so bad, it made me love Beast machines. When BM first came out it was painfully bad. Then after watching the gimmicks of Minicons/Energonstars/Cyberplanet keys and the ever expanding cast with absolutely no character tension or build up, the small deep seeded plots of Beast Machines really stood out. Though I guess that is anime, when anybody in anime builds character, it usually just means they're getting a new technique.

Some people who gave BM that one chance and never watched it again... Now that you're older and can appreciate darker themes, you might be able to get over the awful appearance of of those characters and like it for it's Biblical story telling, of Cybertron's garden of eden like past.

Also fans of the transformers movies and Beast wars who hate Beast Machines. BEAST MACHINES IS JUST BEAST WARS AS IF MICHAEL BAY WOULD MAKE IT. None of the character look like they should and there are so many, soooo many unnecessary explosions.



Movies... The worst thing about the movies is the toys. They are extremely flimsy. They've been getting thinner and thinner. 2007 they had all those moving panels that would grind together and snap right off. Then we had a great couple years of Transformers animated figures, nice solid pieces of plastic, that didn't feel delicate to the touch. Then ROTF came out. (My favorite movie) Toys still sucked though.

Didn't even bother with DOTM toys, they looked awful, no leader class megs, right? Lazerbeak was probably the best thing to come out of that.

This new Optimus shellformer thing... It looks like it has the potential to be an awesome figure. There will of course be many more renditions of it I'm sure. The weapon looks cool, without that back kibble he'd be a decent figure. The shoulders look weak, almost like he's naked and needs more armor on them. Ratchet should give him some steroid energon or something.

I think the problem with giving definitive endings to cartoons is that it might kill the sales of any toys coming out since kids will think the story is over. Leaving things ambiguous, like in "Predacons Rising," allows the thought that things are still "happening."

Heh and MP Smokescreen's deco directly references 'Gambit'. It is so funny. Nah each of those has a nugget of what each of the characters should be. I bought MP Red Alert to go with a future MP Inferno.

chuckdawg1999 wrote:I think the problem with giving definitive endings to cartoons is that it might kill the sales of any toys coming out since kids will think the story is over. Leaving things ambiguous, like in "Predacons Rising," allows the thought that things are still "happening."

Oh my Ra! I figured out how to quote!!

I think the fact that only two or three of the Beast Hunters Figures only appeared in that series might also hurt the toy sales too. I really like the Predacon line. They're cool, solid toys. Not much transformation effort involved, which to somebody who disliked the complexity of some of the movie toys is really cool.

I suppose a definite ending really does hurt series sales though. When BW First ended those Transmetal 2 figures were shelf warmers even up to RID/Car robots came out.

Recently-ish when Animated ended two years after Rodimus and Arcee toys were still on Toy's r'us shelves too. The wal-mart I worked at still had that giant optimus prime, covered in a gross thick layer of dust in the back room and they put it out in the seasonal aisle during spring and summer time XD

Sabrblade wrote:

burning_sirius wrote:I don't see it that much honestly, especially in season 2 when they had more episodes to work with different characters.

But... but season 2 was the one with the most commercialism in it.

"Autobot Spike" - focused on Autobot X, who had no toy
"Changing Gears" - advertised Gears
"City of Steel" - advertised the Constructicons
"Attack of the Autobots" - advertised Optimus
"Traitor" - advertised Mirage and the Insecticons
"The Immobilizer" - advertised Ironhide
"The Autobot Run" - advertised the toys' transforming gimmick in general
"Atlantis, Arise!" - advertised the Dinobots
"Day of the Machines" - advertised Optimus
"Enter the Nightbird" - focused on Nightbird, who had no toy
"A Prime Problem" - advertised Optimus
"The Core" - advertised the Constructicons
"The Insecticon Syndrome" - advertised the Insecticons
"Dinobot Island, Part 1" - advertised the Dinobots and all the new 1985 toys in general
"Dinobot Island, Part 2" - advertised the Dinobots and all the new 1985 toys in general
"The Master Builders" - advertised Grapple and Hoist
"Auto Berserk" - advertised Red Alert and Inferno
"Microbots" - advertised Perceptor
"Megatron's Master Plan, Part 1" - advertised the 1984-1985 Decepticon toys
"Megatron's Master Plan, Part 2" - advertised the 1984-1985 Decepticons toys
"Desertion of the Dinobots, Part 1" - advertised the Dinobots
"Desertion of the Dinobots, Part 2" - advertised the Dinobots
"Blaster Blues" - advertised Blaster and Cosmos
"A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" - focused on just the sheer fun of the episode
"The Golden Lagoon" - advertised Beachcomber
"The God Gambit" - advertised Astrotrain, Cosmos, and Omega Supreme
"Make Tracks" - advertised Tracks
"Child's Play" - advertised the toyline itself
"Quest for Survival" - advertised the Insecticons
"The Secret of Omega Supreme" - advertised Omega Supreme and the Constructicons
"The Gambler" - advertised Smokescreen
"Kremzeek!" - focused on Kremzeek, who had no toy at the time
"Sea Change" - advertised Seaspray
"Triple Takeover" - advertised Blitzwing and Astrotrain
"Prime Target" - advertised Optimus
"Auto-Bop" - advertised Tracks, Blaster, Soundwave, and the cassettes
"The Search for Alpha Trion" - focused on the female Autobots and Alpha Trion, who had no toys back then
"The Girl Who Loved Powerglide" - advertised Powerglide
"Hoist Goes Hollywood" - advertised Hoist
"The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 1" - advertised the Stunticons
"The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 2" - advertised the Stunticons and Aerialbots
"Aerial Assault" - advertised the Aerialbots and Combaticons
"War Dawn" - advertised the Aerialbots
"Trans-Europe Express" - advertised the Stunticons
"Cosmic Rust" - advertised Perceptor, the Aerialbots, and the Stunticons
"Starscream's Brigade" - advertised the Combaticons
"The Revenge of Bruticus" - advertised the Combaticons
"Masquerade" - advertised the Stunticons
"B.O.T." - advertised the Protectobots and the Combaticons

When you say 'work with different characters' in the transformers-verse that just translates as 'advertise more products.'

Those were the days indeed. Wish people would refrain from dissing on any particular era. I for one am more of the G1 (especially the Japanese take from Headmasters to Victory) era. But you will never hear me bad mouthing the other eras (particularly I enjoyed how Beastwars connected to G1 when Megatron tried to change history). Not too fond of Beast Machines but it does have its moments. If I had any complaints with Animated, it was the art style. Story wise it was okay.

Love how latest iterations of TF are sporting more......serious story lines. (I'm breaking with the not dissing any era) Unlike the Bayformer series which was schizophrenic in the storyline (1st 2007 movie was the best imho of the series)

G1 had many "imperfections" to put it nicely but that's probably its charm too.

As commercialism? Wasn't the cartoon (all eras) meant to be glorified advertisements?