Takara Tomy Transformers Masterpiece MP-17 Prowl Teaser #2

Henry921 wrote:Where, exactly did I contradict myself? My point of contention was "the very nature of the Masterpiece line", which I felt was intentionally designed both to select popular characters and molds which could be redecoed and retooled, as indeed, Seekers and OP are, and the Alert/Sideswipe mold has already demonstrated.

The very nature of the MP line is to take G1 designs and makes them super detailed and as show-accurate as possible with modern engineering. The use of redeco-able molds is just a business strategy not inherently tied to the purpose of the MP line. That's a strategy that is used for far more than just the MPs.

The contradiction comes from saying, "I think redecoes and retools are core to the Masterpiece series, just as it was to the original G1 toyline." By saying that they're as essential to MP line as the G1 line, that implies that both any molds that we redeoced and any molds that were new molds in G1 deserves the same treatment in MP form. Meaning that since Jazz was a different mold from Prowl in G1, he should have his own MP mold as well, which contradicts the claim that Jazz would work as a remold of MP Prowl.

That last paragraph made more sense in my head before I typed it, so I hope I worded it coherently enough.

Enough with the teasers already!

So, how does this new dark silhouette that shows you next to nothing differ from the first dark silhouette that shows you next to nothing?

You think by now Takara could afford some light bulbs Seriously wish they would drop the teaser thing and just show pics of their products, its killing me to find out if these bots are indeed Datsun 280Zs

one question is are these going to have licencing by nissan like sideswipe and red alert were with Lamborghini? and if they did jazz would he be a Porsche, since jazz was a Porsche in G1 would Porsche still have issues licensing transformers like they have in the past or would jazz be something else?

This has me very aroused.

<grumpy>

Before you pump out yet another Masterpiece, and choosing a mold that's been pretty much done in the Alternator line, you should consider rethinking the transformations.
My Seeker is flimsey, if you grab it by the waist the front of the body falls down, can't rotate the shoulders without shifting bigger parts etc.

tnx, Takara bye

</grumpy>

SKYWARPED_128 wrote:So, how does this new dark silhouette that shows you next to nothing differ from the first dark silhouette that shows you next to nothing?

This is from a different angle.

KnightStrike wrote:You think by now Takara could afford some light bulbs Seriously wish they would drop the teaser thing and just show pics of their products, its killing me to find out if these bots are indeed Datsun 280Zs

That's the idea. They do this to keep us in suspense and get us excited. It's all just to build up hype.

If they showed it to us now, the big reveal to come later would be spoiled.

Ultra Markus wrote:one question is are these going to have licencing by nissan like sideswipe and red alert were with Lamborghini? and if they did jazz would he be a Porsche, since jazz was a Porsche in G1 would Porsche still have issues licensing transformers like they have in the past or would jazz be something else?

But this is Prowl.

Photoshoppers, anyone able to get more detail out of this one?

ENOUGH WITH THE REPAINTS!

Muscle Man wrote:ENOUGH WITH THE REPAINTS!

Er, this toy is a new mold.

My one and only complaint (it's minor) is that the ends of his doors don't curl up like they did in the show.

And I REALLY hope he doesn't have "POLICE" painted on his doors. Leave that to hasbro.

TimothyR wrote:My one and only complaint (it's minor) is that the ends of his doors don't curl up like they did in the show.

And I REALLY hope he doesn't have "POLICE" painted on his doors. Leave that to hasbro.

Even if the Takara G1 toy had them too?

noctorro wrote:<grumpy>

Before you pump out yet another Masterpiece, and choosing a mold that's been pretty much done in the Alternator line, you should consider rethinking the transformations.
My Seeker is flimsey, if you grab it by the waist the front of the body falls down, can't rotate the shoulders without shifting bigger parts etc.

tnx, Takara bye

</grumpy>

I understand your gripe and agree, but I think they did a pretty good job MP Sidesweipe, Convoy, and Soundwave. I have faith MP Prowl will have better articulation than the seekers.

KnightStrike wrote:You think by now Takara could afford some light bulbs Seriously wish they would drop the teaser thing and just show pics of their products, its killing me to find out if these bots are indeed Datsun 280Zs

Sabrblade wrote:
That's the idea. They do this to keep us in suspense and get us excited. It's all just to build up hype.
If they showed it to us now, the big reveal to come later would be spoiled.

Point well taken, but this is Prowl(and more importantly for me the same mold as Bluestreak!) we are talking about! This much suspense just isn't right On a more serious note, Nissan owns the rights to all things Datsun and Nissan has expressed no issues with licensing to HasTak for TFs correct, or am I getting things confused again?

Come on... takara is definitely doing this on purpose! You can tell that this figure along with smokescreen and bluestreak are going to be awesome though. Can't wait to see what they actually look like.

I also hope that takara/hasbro keeps the same scale with the mp line. They probably will though i don't see why rescaling again would do any good. They probably did that with optimus because that was their first masterpiece ever and it was a test in a way.

But hopefully by 2015 most of the G1 roster will be out. I don't know though. That would be A LOT of mp figures in such little time. I just want to see everyone looking exactly how they looked in the show.

I wasn't alive when G1 started, but i bet anyone that was never thought years from then they'd have figures that look pretty much exactly the way they do in the show. The wonders of technology and the mind.

sdn1337 wrote:Come on... takara is definitely doing this on purpose! You can tell that this figure along with smokescreen and bluestreak are going to be awesome though. Can't wait to see what they actually look like.

I also hope that takara/hasbro keeps the same scale with the mp line. They probably will though i don't see why rescaling again would do any good. They probably did that with optimus because that was their first masterpiece ever and it was a test in a way.

But hopefully by 2015 most of the G1 roster will be out. I don't know though. That would be A LOT of mp figures in such little time. I just want to see everyone looking exactly how they looked in the show.

I wasn't alive when G1 started, but i bet anyone that was never thought years from then they'd have figures that look pretty much exactly the way they do in the show. The wonders of technology and the mind.

I am pretty sure if in 1984 someone had told me that one day I would get Transformers that looked just like they did in the cartoon and have oodles of articulation so you could do all kinds of awesome poses my kid brain would have exploded from sheer awesomeness

Sabrblade wrote:

SKYWARPED_128 wrote:So, how does this new dark silhouette that shows you next to nothing differ from the first dark silhouette that shows you next to nothing?

This is from a different angle.

KnightStrike wrote:You think by now Takara could afford some light bulbs Seriously wish they would drop the teaser thing and just show pics of their products, its killing me to find out if these bots are indeed Datsun 280Zs

That's the idea. They do this to keep us in suspense and get us excited. It's all just to build up hype.

If they showed it to us now, the big reveal to come later would be spoiled.

Ultra Markus wrote:one question is are these going to have licencing by nissan like sideswipe and red alert were with Lamborghini? and if they did jazz would he be a Porsche, since jazz was a Porsche in G1 would Porsche still have issues licensing transformers like they have in the past or would jazz be something else?

But this is Prowl.

So, im not talking about Prowl

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

TimothyR wrote:My one and only complaint (it's minor) is that the ends of his doors don't curl up like they did in the show.

And I REALLY hope he doesn't have "POLICE" painted on his doors. Leave that to hasbro.

Even if the Takara G1 toy had them too?

If you notice, takara shoots more for toon accuracy. Hence their recent starscream, hot rod, and the accessories that soundwave and sideswipe come with.

In the cartoon neither car doors or robot mode doors had "POLICE" painted on them.

The only thing that takara omits are colors, especially silver for white. In the toon, primes waist and thighs are white, while his toy is silver/grey, same goes for parts of soundwaves legs and his forearms.

Hasbro will probably take the toy version, similar to what they did with hot rod.

It wouldn't be the worst thing in he world, it just wouldn't really coincide with the accuracy that they've been striving for lately.

Takara are enjoying this teaser approach ay too much methinks. Still, I can't say I blame them. Every since the paradigm change with the line, they've boarded the proverbial gravy trail and become a pack of plastic crack addicts, with us, their helpless victims.

I imagine that it's just as hard on Shogo Hasui though. Could you imagine making these amazing versions of the original characters- knowing they've been aced, knowing people are going to love them, and then having to keep quiet about it? I imagine it's killing him and the Takara design team as much as it's killing us.

Also Blurrz is spot on about licensing. IIRC, recently it came out that licensing was the stumbling block with us getting a Hasbro release of Sideswipe and Red Alert, while Japan seems to be getting a free pass there. Chances are whilst most of the MP cars wont see a Hasbro release, they should still see a Takara release.

Oh, and I think the whole "this mold can be used for jazz" should end. It's not going to happen.. They're not going to use a non original mold for such a major character. They might use some similar techniques, but a lot of transformers share similar techniques.

They're haven't used soundwaves mold for a blaster, haven't used sideswipes mold for susnstreaker, and they haven't used primes mold for motormaster, so why would they use prowls as jazz?

KnightStrike wrote:

sdn1337 wrote:Come on... takara is definitely doing this on purpose! You can tell that this figure along with smokescreen and bluestreak are going to be awesome though. Can't wait to see what they actually look like.

I also hope that takara/hasbro keeps the same scale with the mp line. They probably will though i don't see why rescaling again would do any good. They probably did that with optimus because that was their first masterpiece ever and it was a test in a way.

But hopefully by 2015 most of the G1 roster will be out. I don't know though. That would be A LOT of mp figures in such little time. I just want to see everyone looking exactly how they looked in the show.

I wasn't alive when G1 started, but i bet anyone that was never thought years from then they'd have figures that look pretty much exactly the way they do in the show. The wonders of technology and the mind.

I am pretty sure if in 1984 someone had told me that one day I would get Transformers that looked just like they did in the cartoon and have oodles of articulation so you could do all kinds of awesome poses my kid brain would have exploded from sheer awesomeness

Hopefully we will see most of the G1 characters in the next 2-3 years.. my most anticipated release. masterpiece witwicky set with sparkplug, spike, and daniel.

Sabrblade wrote:

Muscle Man wrote:ENOUGH WITH THE REPAINTS!

Er, this toy is a new mold.

Ha ha ha, agreed. Where's the high five emoticon?

Ultra Markus wrote:one question is are these going to have licencing by nissan like sideswipe and red alert were with Lamborghini? and if they did jazz would he be a Porsche, since jazz was a Porsche in G1 would Porsche still have issues licensing transformers like they have in the past or would jazz be something else?

Yes, it would be a licensed Jazz. Just like BT before them, the MP line of cars will all be officially licensed.

So far I think I'm liking the toon accurate feet/legs.

Prowls shoulders seem too far apart in the teaser though. The chest and arms are huge making the door wings look puny.

And the headsculpt doesn't seem very sleek. Stubby wings on the head and he has no neck? Maybe it is a picture of Smokescreen instead???

Actually if enough people say something I could see Takara either including "POLICE" stickers or making them downloadable scans, just like they did with the "full energon cube" for Soundwave.

warzon3 wrote:So far I think I'm liking the toon accurate feet/legs.

Prowls shoulders seem too far apart in the teaser though. The chest and arms are huge making the door wings look puny.

And the headsculpt doesn't seem very sleek. Stubby wings on the head and he has no neck? Maybe it is a picture of Smokescreen instead???

I don't understand what you mean when you say that his head doesn't look sleek.

No neck? From both of the angles that we've seen, the neck wouldn't be visible.

I'm hoping when we see it in color, his doors won't look so small.

Sabrblade wrote:

Henry921 wrote:Where, exactly did I contradict myself? My point of contention was "the very nature of the Masterpiece line", which I felt was intentionally designed both to select popular characters and molds which could be redecoed and retooled, as indeed, Seekers and OP are, and the Alert/Sideswipe mold has already demonstrated.

The very nature of the MP line is to take G1 designs and makes them super detailed and as show-accurate as possible with modern engineering. The use of redeco-able molds is just a business strategy not inherently tied to the purpose of the MP line. That's a strategy that is used for far more than just the MPs.

The contradiction comes from saying, "I think redecoes and retools are core to the Masterpiece series, just as it was to the original G1 toyline." By saying that they're as essential to MP line as the G1 line, that implies that both any molds that we redeoced and any molds that were new molds in G1 deserves the same treatment in MP form. Meaning that since Jazz was a different mold from Prowl in G1, he should have his own MP mold as well, which contradicts the claim that Jazz would work as a remold of MP Prowl.

That last paragraph made more sense in my head before I typed it, so I hope I worded it coherently enough.

^ This. I sincerely could not say it better than this.

In all cases, the MP line is pretty much a "playground" for those who have the time and ability to make said figures. Saying that all three Convoy are just retools would be like another saying the same about myself, Sabrblade, and Pryme.

As for the beloved Deputy Commander (assuming that is his rank when Convoy was Supreme Commander, as his Takara function was "Second-in-Command, Assisting Convoy") named Meister (Jazz), yeah - He transforms into a Porsche 935 Turbo, versus Prowl transforms into a Datsun 280ZX (aka Nissan S130). Big difference.

But despite that, I think the prospects of there being a "Masterpiece" Meister has spoiled this figure for me.

I've had a go at the two images given so far, but I think they learned from the first one and took extra steps on the second as there are no useful details in this.

TimothyR wrote:

warzon3 wrote:So far I think I'm liking the toon accurate feet/legs.

Prowls shoulders seem too far apart in the teaser though. The chest and arms are huge making the door wings look puny.

And the headsculpt doesn't seem very sleek. Stubby wings on the head and he has no neck? Maybe it is a picture of Smokescreen instead???

I don't understand what you mean when you say that his head doesn't look sleek.

No neck? From both of the angles that we've seen, the neck wouldn't be visible.

I'm hoping when we see it in color, his doors won't look so small.

In the teaser images MP Prowl's helmet gets really wide at the cheeks and seems to continue getting wider all the way down his neck. It looks very blocky too....that isn't how it is in the cartoon.

....yes I hope it just the angle of the photo.

Bowspearer wrote:Takara are enjoying this teaser approach ay too much methinks. Still, I can't say I blame them. Every since the paradigm change with the line, they've boarded the proverbial gravy trail and become a pack of plastic crack addicts, with us, their helpless victims.

I imagine that it's just as hard on Shogo Hasui though. Could you imagine making these amazing versions of the original characters- knowing they've been aced, knowing people are going to love them, and then having to keep quiet about it? I imagine it's killing him and the Takara design team as much as it's killing us.

Also Blurrz is spot on about licensing. IIRC, recently it came out that licensing was the stumbling block with us getting a Hasbro release of Sideswipe and Red Alert, while Japan seems to be getting a free pass there. Chances are whilst most of the MP cars wont see a Hasbro release, they should still see a Takara release.

Interesting.

Sabrblade wrote:

Henry921 wrote:Where, exactly did I contradict myself? My point of contention was "the very nature of the Masterpiece line", which I felt was intentionally designed both to select popular characters and molds which could be redecoed and retooled, as indeed, Seekers and OP are, and the Alert/Sideswipe mold has already demonstrated.

The very nature of the MP line is to take G1 designs and makes them super detailed and as show-accurate as possible with modern engineering. The use of redeco-able molds is just a business strategy not inherently tied to the purpose of the MP line. That's a strategy that is used for far more than just the MPs.

The contradiction comes from saying, "I think redecoes and retools are core to the Masterpiece series, just as it was to the original G1 toyline." By saying that they're as essential to MP line as the G1 line, that implies that both any molds that we redeoced and any molds that were new molds in G1 deserves the same treatment in MP form. Meaning that since Jazz was a different mold from Prowl in G1, he should have his own MP mold as well, which contradicts the claim that Jazz would work as a remold of MP Prowl.

That last paragraph made more sense in my head before I typed it, so I hope I worded it coherently enough.

Still not seeing how I contradicted myself. We don't know the exact principles involved with the Takara engineers, and I won't speculate. However, just like in G1, we're seeing mold reuse of characters, both because they're popular, and because they can be redecoed. The figures not redecoed in the MP line have no obvious counterparts. Guys like Megatron, Hot Rod, and Grimlock don't have as many well known analogues as Optimus and Starscream.

Yes, every line has redecos and retools, but in MP's case it's both frugal and profitable, since they have popular characters like Thundercracker and Frenzy to make from existing molds.

My original post doesn't mention Jazz at all, but rather specifies my intent to stay neutral in the argument of whether Jazz should be retooled from Prowl. My point of contention was the underlying assertion that the MP line was not intended to make retools/redecos.

We've seen new molds like Soundwave, certainly, but we've also seen molds that can and indeed have been redecoed multiple times, just as we're seeing now with a new mold of Prowl, redecoed into three other forms.

THAT was my point, and it has never involved Jazz at all.

Henry921 wrote:We don't know the exact principles involved with the Takara engineers, and I won't speculate.

Based on what I have read up on, the line was created so well known designers could create their incarnation of different characters. However, I am assuming that while the factor is the same, the need to expand was required. Specifically because they need to cater more to the older fanbase, as Takara Tomy stated that they are restructuring Generation One for new fanbases.

As for the rest he said, even though I try to give him a hard time about it, he does tend to go off a bit due to the fact that he is trying to find comparisons and explanations to those comparisons. So it is best to take anything you did not say, but he sounds like you did, as such. Then again...

Can I blame him for spoiling this figure for me by making me hope that they will put out a "Masterpiece" Meister (Jazz)?

Henry921 wrote:My original post doesn't mention Jazz at all, but rather specifies my intent to stay neutral in the argument of whether Jazz should be retooled from Prowl. My point of contention was the underlying assertion that the MP line was not intended to make retools/redecos.

Got it.

Since my original post was refuting those who were saying Jazz would work as a Prowl retool, Bowspearer (who was doing the same as I was) must have thought your disagreement with my post meant you were in the same "Jazz from Prowl" camp as those whom we were refuting, which thusly led to this misunderstanding.

warzon3 wrote:

TimothyR wrote:

warzon3 wrote:So far I think I'm liking the toon accurate feet/legs.

Prowls shoulders seem too far apart in the teaser though. The chest and arms are huge making the door wings look puny.

And the headsculpt doesn't seem very sleek. Stubby wings on the head and he has no neck? Maybe it is a picture of Smokescreen instead???

I don't understand what you mean when you say that his head doesn't look sleek.

No neck? From both of the angles that we've seen, the neck wouldn't be visible.

I'm hoping when we see it in color, his doors won't look so small.

In the teaser images MP Prowl's helmet gets really wide at the cheeks and seems to continue getting wider all the way down his neck. It looks very blocky too....that isn't how it is in the cartoon.

....yes I hope it just the angle of the photo.

I personally don't see the head getting wider, and from the previous enhanced photo we saw, I think the head looks great.. But, as usual, everything is subjective.

Haven't read through all 17 pages, but i found this interpretation (courtesy of FTW2005)

Henry921 wrote:Still not seeing how I contradicted myself. We don't know the exact principles involved with the Takara engineers, and I won't speculate. However, just like in G1, we're seeing mold reuse of characters, both because they're popular, and because they can be redecoed. The figures not redecoed in the MP line have no obvious counterparts. Guys like Megatron, Hot Rod, and Grimlock don't have as many well known analogues as Optimus and Starscream.

Yes, every line has redecos and retools, but in MP's case it's both frugal and profitable, since they have popular characters like Thundercracker and Frenzy to make from existing molds.

My original post doesn't mention Jazz at all, but rather specifies my intent to stay neutral in the argument of whether Jazz should be retooled from Prowl. My point of contention was the underlying assertion that the MP line was not intended to make retools/redecos.

We've seen new molds like Soundwave, certainly, but we've also seen molds that can and indeed have been redecoed multiple times, just as we're seeing now with a new mold of Prowl, redecoed into three other forms.

THAT was my point, and it has never involved Jazz at all.

Actually you've just proved you contradicted yourself and here's why.

When it comes to the design paradigms here, then there is no such thing as a neutral position as arguments falls into one of 2 camps.

One premise is that the design premise for the Masterpiece line is identical to that of Binartech and CHUG- namely that the Masterpiece design is merely a modernisation of original characters where there is an emphasis on recolour/retool potential and over meticulous adherence to the original character design.

Alternately the other premise is that the Masterpiece line is a modernisation of the original G1 designs (rather than the characters). As such figures will never be recolours or retools that were never recolours retools to begin with. While some figures might share molds or the majority of tooling and might get released together, that is entirely due to capitalising on similarities, rather than shoehoring characters into the same mould which originally shared the same mould (eg Classics Sideswipe and Sunstreaker and BT Red Alert and Prowl).

Now let's look at the contentious statement made by you:

Henry921 wrote:I think redecoes and retools are core to the Masterpiece series, just as it was to the original G1 toyline.

The problem when you say that is that G1 and the Masterpiece line have radically different design premises. With G1, particularly 1984-1985, it was about taking a group of Diaclone, Microman, Beetras, Dorvack and other one-off toy designs, and rebranding them into a single coherent toyline.

Where moulds could be retooled or recoloured, they were- and subsequently given individual identities. Skywarp immediately comes to mind as an example of this. In other words, G1 was not required to slavishly adhere to the pretf toolings and colour schemes in the same way that the Masterpiece line must meticulously remain true to the original G1 designs. Thus when you say that the Masterpiece line will remain faithful to the G1 designs and then say that the Masterpiece line and G1 lines share the same design paradigm with regards to recolours, then you are in contradiction with yourself.