Studio Series 86 Leader Starscream Found at Target

I hate the window-less packaging that doesn't allow us to check for any blemishes or other imperfections on the figure. Now's it's a complete gamble as to whether the figure is flawed or not.

Sabrblade wrote:I hate the window-less packaging that doesn't allow us to check for any blemishes or other imperfections on the figure. Now's it's a complete gamble as to whether the figure is flawed or not.

No different then a Titan or commander class or ordering anything online.

Randomhero wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:I hate the window-less packaging that doesn't allow us to check for any blemishes or other imperfections on the figure. Now's it's a complete gamble as to whether the figure is flawed or not.

No different then a Titan or commander class or ordering anything online.

Plus now it makes it impossible to tell if the figure was switched with another.

BW Megatron wrote:

Randomhero wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:I hate the window-less packaging that doesn't allow us to check for any blemishes or other imperfections on the figure. Now's it's a complete gamble as to whether the figure is flawed or not.

No different then a Titan or commander class or ordering anything online.

Plus now it makes it impossible to tell if the figure was switched with another.

Again, titan, commander class and ordering online. It’s no different. The alternative is an open window where someone can just rip his head off.

Randomhero wrote:

BW Megatron wrote:

Randomhero wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:I hate the window-less packaging that doesn't allow us to check for any blemishes or other imperfections on the figure. Now's it's a complete gamble as to whether the figure is flawed or not.

No different then a Titan or commander class or ordering anything online.

Plus now it makes it impossible to tell if the figure was switched with another.

Again, titan, commander class and ordering online. It’s no different. The alternative is an open window where someone can just rip his head off.

or they give up on the virtue signaling and go back to using windowed packages to avoid people purchasing the item not liking it's appearance and having it returned.

Rainbow High is putting out a special edition doll with special edition packaging for $80 US which if it was in a standard package would be $26 US. Why am I mentioning this you may be asking, because they also have decided that they will do a windowless package. Doll collectors are a lot more particular about flaws and sadly even though RH is generally a higher quality doll line, their quality control is getting awful. I foresee many of those being opened and returned which can be a costly prospect for the stores and MGA.

I think the TF community should start doing the same thing.

Rodimus Knight wrote:

Randomhero wrote:

BW Megatron wrote:

Randomhero wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:I hate the window-less packaging that doesn't allow us to check for any blemishes or other imperfections on the figure. Now's it's a complete gamble as to whether the figure is flawed or not.

No different then a Titan or commander class or ordering anything online.

Plus now it makes it impossible to tell if the figure was switched with another.

Again, titan, commander class and ordering online. It’s no different. The alternative is an open window where someone can just rip his head off.

or they give up on the virtue signaling and go back to using windowed packages to avoid people purchasing the item not liking it's appearance and having it returned.

Rainbow High is putting out a special edition doll with special edition packaging for $80 US which if it was in a standard package would be $26 US. Why am I mentioning this you may be asking, because they also have decided that they will do a windowless package. Doll collectors are a lot more particular about flaws and sadly even though RH is generally a higher quality doll line, their quality control is getting awful. I foresee many of those being opened and returned which can be a costly prospect for the stores and MGA.

I think the TF community should start doing the same thing.

They’re not going to go back to the way it was. Hasbro’s reason for this is for a good reasoning and cause. It is not hasbro or any other companies fault for having scummy fans who will return something with the wrong figure in or with nothing in.


Again, if you don’t like this at all because you feel you should be able to see what’s inside 1. You’re being selfish. They’re doing this to minimize disposable plastic waste. Sorry but the the environment is more important then your toy hobby. 2. You can just quit collecting and move on. Or 3. You can do what everyone already does and order it online through a legitimate retailer. Something everyone already does whether they wanna admit to it or not. Don’t act like y’all don’t have takara imports from Japan that ya didn’t order online like Mps or legends or their selects line etc. It mainly guarantees you’re getting the figure but does guarantee what’s inside is the toy.

Im just gonna order my leader class online. Just like I do with my Titan class and my commander class. Problem solved.

Randomhero wrote:

Rodimus Knight wrote:

Randomhero wrote:

BW Megatron wrote:

Randomhero wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:I hate the window-less packaging that doesn't allow us to check for any blemishes or other imperfections on the figure. Now's it's a complete gamble as to whether the figure is flawed or not.

No different then a Titan or commander class or ordering anything online.

Plus now it makes it impossible to tell if the figure was switched with another.

Again, titan, commander class and ordering online. It’s no different. The alternative is an open window where someone can just rip his head off.

or they give up on the virtue signaling and go back to using windowed packages to avoid people purchasing the item not liking it's appearance and having it returned.

Rainbow High is putting out a special edition doll with special edition packaging for $80 US which if it was in a standard package would be $26 US. Why am I mentioning this you may be asking, because they also have decided that they will do a windowless package. Doll collectors are a lot more particular about flaws and sadly even though RH is generally a higher quality doll line, their quality control is getting awful. I foresee many of those being opened and returned which can be a costly prospect for the stores and MGA.

I think the TF community should start doing the same thing.

They’re not going to go back to the way it was. Hasbro’s reason for this is for a good reasoning and cause. It is not hasbro or any other companies fault for having scummy fans who will return something with the wrong figure in or with nothing in.


Again, if you don’t like this at all because you feel you should be able to see what’s inside 1. You’re being selfish. They’re doing this to minimize disposable plastic waste. Sorry but the the environment is more important then your toy hobby. 2. You can just quit collection and move on. Or 3. You can do what everyone already does and order it online through a legitimate retailer. Something already does whether they wanna admit to it or not. It’s mainly guarantees you’re getting the figure but does guarantee what’s inside is the toy.

None of these companies take the environment seriously, and only do this sort of things in order to virtue signal to people like you. if they took it seriously, they would not be producing them in the countries that put out the most pollution and plastic waste. But hey, if you really cared about the environment, then you would stop supporting these companies by not collecting these toys at all. My guess is, you're too selfish to do that and will just continue with your own virtue signaling while supporting the world's worst polluters.

As far as ordering online goes, you can still return items you don't like. some may cost you shipping if you do, but many others have free return options, so if you think people who order online can't return a bad item, you're very much mistaken. I am going to be returning a RH doll to walmart that I ordered online because the doll's face is all messed up.

Rodimus Knight wrote:

Randomhero wrote:

Rodimus Knight wrote:

Randomhero wrote:

BW Megatron wrote:

Randomhero wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:I hate the window-less packaging that doesn't allow us to check for any blemishes or other imperfections on the figure. Now's it's a complete gamble as to whether the figure is flawed or not.

No different then a Titan or commander class or ordering anything online.

Plus now it makes it impossible to tell if the figure was switched with another.

Again, titan, commander class and ordering online. It’s no different. The alternative is an open window where someone can just rip his head off.

or they give up on the virtue signaling and go back to using windowed packages to avoid people purchasing the item not liking it's appearance and having it returned.

Rainbow High is putting out a special edition doll with special edition packaging for $80 US which if it was in a standard package would be $26 US. Why am I mentioning this you may be asking, because they also have decided that they will do a windowless package. Doll collectors are a lot more particular about flaws and sadly even though RH is generally a higher quality doll line, their quality control is getting awful. I foresee many of those being opened and returned which can be a costly prospect for the stores and MGA.

I think the TF community should start doing the same thing.

They’re not going to go back to the way it was. Hasbro’s reason for this is for a good reasoning and cause. It is not hasbro or any other companies fault for having scummy fans who will return something with the wrong figure in or with nothing in.


Again, if you don’t like this at all because you feel you should be able to see what’s inside 1. You’re being selfish. They’re doing this to minimize disposable plastic waste. Sorry but the the environment is more important then your toy hobby. 2. You can just quit collection and move on. Or 3. You can do what everyone already does and order it online through a legitimate retailer. Something already does whether they wanna admit to it or not. It’s mainly guarantees you’re getting the figure but does guarantee what’s inside is the toy.

None of these companies take the environment seriously, and only do this sort of things in order to virtue signal to people like you. if they took it seriously, they would not be producing them in the countries that put out the most pollution and plastic waste. But hey, if you really cared about the environment, then you would stop supporting these companies by not collecting these toys at all. My guess is, you're too selfish to do that and will just continue with your own virtue signaling while supporting the world's worst polluters.

As far as ordering online goes, you can still return items you don't like. some may cost you shipping if you do, but many others have free return options, so if you think people who order online can't return a bad item, you're very much mistaken. I am going to be returning a RH doll to walmart that I ordered online because the doll's face is all messed up.

Hasbro released multiple statements saying they’re going this route to be more environmental friendly. That’s them saying it. What’s you’re saying by claiming they don’t care about the environment is you just making stuff up to justify your own feelings. Whether you wish to believe their responses and choices is your own problem but it is your problem. If you don’t like it then stop collecting. Simple as that. My solution is I’ll shop online. That way I don’t I don’t have to worry about someone swapping toys and returning them. Been doing it since 2013 with the first Titan and been doing with my commander classes and anything I’ve chosen to order online

Also I don’t care about your doll collecting hobby. I seriously don’t. Im talking about hasbro and their intents. Not some other company and what they’re doing.

The only difference the windowless box makes for me would be on the very few figures that I was not planning to get, but changed my mind seeing them in hand. At leader class SS or WFC, that would only be 2 figures SS Shockwave and Kingdom Ultra Magnus. Both were not pre-ordered and were in hand decisions. Shocky's metallic sheen and UM's bright white spoke to me.

Shockwave I may have eventually gotten anyway, I was only dabbling in SS when he came out and am more all in now. Ultra Magnus I would have gotten anyway, possibly at a better price as he went on sale a few times since I got him.

So, I guess if anything my wallet is in favor of the windowless box, and I'm sort of indifferent. The next few leader figures are nos for me anyway so this really won't matter much in the long run.

william-james88 wrote:We are not even done January yet and we have a nice new sighting of a toy which some retailers were planning to only get in June. Transformers Studio Series 86 Leader Class Coronation Starscream was spotted at a Target in Greenwood Indiana. They come two per case and are closed box. This is the same voyager Starscream we got in Earthrise (proving that all these G1 character molds are meant to go together) but with articulated hands and lots of accessories including Megatron's throne.

So ER Wheeljack, Cliffjumper, Arcee, Allicon, Sunstreaker, Grapple, Quintesson Judge, Optimus Prime, Astrotrain, Thundercracker, Skywarp, Prowl, Bluestreak, Ironhide, Ratchet, Thrust, Dirge and Ramjet

along with Kingdom Huffer, Cyclonus, Blaster (& Eject), Ultra Magnus, Galvatron, Rodimus Prime

are your SS86 toys "in spirit". (in that they all appeared in TF:TM)

WE have already seen Cliffjumper get repainted for a SS86 (Buzzworthy) packaging, and presumably Arcee and Mirage are coming as well (although Mirage wasn't in TF:TM so... ). So anyone expecting an all new toy "more cartoon accurate" version of anything from ER or Kingdom in the SS86 line shouldn't expect more than a slight repaint if anything. Is that correct?

*edit* I'll throw Siege Springer in there as well. Although I was reluctant to include anything from Siege because of the pre-earth modes, Springer was always the same no matter what. A clean deco perhaps if anything in the SS86 line later on perhaps?

For my money, while windowless packaging makes it harder to tell a toy's quality or whether it's been swapped or otherwise pillaged... someone would have to break the tape to open it now (as opposed to loosening the window, something many 12" action figures' accessories were a victim of, back when 12" action figures had more than 5 points of articulation grumble grumble) and that might be easier to notice. And if Hasbro starts gluing instead of taping, well...

And as far as returning a swapped toy goes... The lack of a window might actually reduce the likelihood, since with windowless boxes employees would have to actually take more than a passing glance to confirm they weren't getting back a box of air or one weighted with rocks.

And a positive you can't dispute: Windowless packaging is a godsend for figures that end up in smaller stores that do window displays (or that have big unobstructed windows in general).

It does feel like a fairly small harm reduction step from Hasbro in an attempt to score some brownie points (especially compared to the harm that would be reduced by, say, your average headphone maker or the Bachmann Thomas range going windowless, and considering it's only one area of the ethics problems with toy manufacturing) and it not being clear to what extent they can get away without using plastic insulation trays. But for my money, while it's certainly nothing to sing their praises over or be distracted by... it's not completely worthless either.

And we haven't talked about the real problem with windowless packaging.




It makes MISB collectors all the snootier about what they do

Personally, it's not going to scare me off buying in store. True, I can't inspect it... But I don't think the swapping will happen as much as some fear (I at least haven't heard of it happening much with, say, Star Wars vehicles, most of which larger than Micro Machines/Titanium Series have been packaged windowless for decades; scalped? Yes. Swapped? Not so much), and I don't have a massive stick up my exhaust port about small patches of the paintjob being minute-rice perfect.

Randomhero wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:I hate the window-less packaging that doesn't allow us to check for any blemishes or other imperfections on the figure. Now's it's a complete gamble as to whether the figure is flawed or not.

No different then a Titan or commander class or ordering anything online.

Or any MP figure

o.supreme wrote:

william-james88 wrote:(proving that all these G1 character molds are meant to go together)

So ER Wheeljack, Cliffjumper, Arcee, Allicon, Sunstreaker, Grapple, Quintesson Judge, Optimus Prime, Astrotrain, Thundercracker, Skywarp, Prowl, Bluestreak, Ironhide, Ratchet, Thrust, Dirge and Ramjet

along with Kingdom Huffer, Cyclonus, Blaster (& Eject), Ultra Magnus, Galvatron, Rodimus Prime

are your SS86 toys "in spirit". (in that they all appeared in TF:TM)

WE have already seen Cliffjumper get repainted for a SS86 (Buzzworthy) packaging, and presumably Arcee and Mirage are coming as well (although Mirage wasn't in TF:TM so... ). So anyone expecting an all new toy "more cartoon accurate" version of anything from ER or Kingdom in the SS86 line shouldn't expect more than a slight repaint if anything. Is that correct?

*edit* I'll throw Siege Springer in there as well. Although I was reluctant to include anything from Siege because of the pre-earth modes, Springer was always the same no matter what. A clean deco perhaps if anything in the SS86 line later on perhaps?

In all these re-releases under SS86 or Buzzworthy, the molds are not being changed. Nothing Will said ruled out redecos, the mold on Cliffjumper is staying the same.

Food for thought, companies since the 80s at least have been doing open-faced, windowless packaging. Cyberverse heavily featured it well before Hasbro said it was going to be a thing. Heck, remember when they were going with those paper ties made from recycled packaging?

I'm not too concerned about the closed box leaders, but with the open Cyberverse, although I don't collect them, I have seen a lot of broken/ damaged toys from kids obviously playing with it trying to remove them from the packaging. I'm not saying this for sure will be the case with open window Legacy toys, but there will always be unruly kids, and trolls if the Lebron James head swiping incidents are any indication.

Also like the Lebron James space jam toys. If the bottom line is effected, they will turn to plastic to fix it.

If you're really worried about the contents of the box being swapped out just give it a shake. It's not like Hasbro isn't going to use a bunch of ties to keep everything in place, anyone swapping out figures sure aren't going to use that same sort of care.

Windowless boxes are hardly a new thing in Transformers, we had them in G1.

Emerje

So, apparently doing something new that's good for the environment is "virtue signaling" if you are also continuing to do anything that is bad for the environment. I think there's some detachment from the realities of adulthood there.

Or someone is really in love with the phrase "virtue signaling".

I believe that trying to save the environment is futile because my friend almost drowned inside a NYC subway station last summer.

1984forever wrote:I believe that trying to save the environment is futile because my friend almost drowned inside a NYC subway station last summer.

Oh, as far as climate destabilization is concerned I think we're past the point of no return now.

But, we could have been in a very different place now if people had been more willing to start making incremental changes and tiny sacrifices 40 years ago.

But at every stage, there was the relentless pushback from the nihilists who not only refused to do their part, but demeaned and denigrated anyone who tried to do anything. They put themselves on a bizarre little throne where they would do nothing to help, but defended that position by criticizing everyone else for not doing enough. The fact that we're all ****ed somehow just makes it harder to watch people keep doing it. It's like watching someone run over a dog, and then stop and back slowly over the remains laughing about how clever they are. The dog was already dead after the first pass, sure, but God, just move on.

Too bad the null rays don't sit on the arms correctly.

ZeroWolf wrote:Is it important to you that you believe that they're different? Will it change how you feel about the characters?

As for screamer, there was nothing ever said about his legs, in fact the initial rumours only claimed that his shoulders had been altered to fit the cape. That's why a lot of us whers surprised to see his hands had been altered.

I'd still say the throne is meant for someone else though

It's not that important... It doesn't change how I feel about any character.
And I definitely could be incorrectly remembering about the Coronation SS prototype; it may have been his chest/torso that was going to be remolded, but either way, there was a proposed change on a shown prototype, and I don’t remember it being the shoulders (they were covered by the new pieces). The photo I saw this in was a posted screenshot from a video where that figure was talked about and shown by a Hastak rep. But the altered parts were not painted, and were a darker colored plastic.
Either way, sure, Coronation SS uses the ER mold.
That doesn't prove anything about a difference in aesthetics/amount of molded detail.
“But you’re claiming SS86 has a different aesthetic from figures from the other lines”.
Yup. And obviously ER Starscream wasn’t initially designed for SS86…
Hastak clearly decided that the coronation gear made that figure movie-related enough.

Trying to say the Siege greebling is the same as the subtle details seen on the SS86 figures is what I don't agree with.
Because it's clearly different.
I’ve never said it’s like comparing an MP to a Cyberverse figure.
But look at any Siege figure, then the photo that was recently posted of Scourge and Cyclonus and you’ll see the difference. And if not, well, that doesn't mean differences don't exist. Of course those two (and any SS86 figures) are going to have some molded detail... These aren’t recent MP figures… But I say "some" lightly, because it's subtle. There’s substantially less, and where you do see detail, it’s more intentional in appearance (weird, probably because it’s not overdone).
The greebling on figures like Astrotrain, Refraktor, the modulators, the seekers, and lots of others, looks like space-filler. Or maybe a better term is surface-filler.
With those, someone at Hastak decided to go with the "more is more" design approach. And I'm not here trying to label it 'good' or 'bad'. But it's there. And of course you can put SS86 and Siege figures in the same display to "go together"... That again doesn't prove anything. I have CW Magnus with my SS86 figures.

I also don’t always care what a company has “blatantly said”.
It’s at least somewhat unlikely for a huge company to publicly own its mistakes, mis-steps, or put out any sort of vibe that a curve-ball type situation wasn’t planned for or handled in the 100% best way possible. This doesn’t mean I think Hastak (or almost any company) exaggerates or lies about everything. Even large corporations deserve a little wiggle-room from time to time… Demanding or expecting “perfection” from a company is silly.
But Hastak also said SS86 figures would be representations of the characters from the movie, so that’s why Dinobots won’t come with swords… Then Gnaw arrives with a blaster.
Roughly 15 years ago, “The seeker characters in this Botcon set will never be regular retail release figures”… Then what, maybe a year and a half to two years later……
Plus every remotely similar situation between these two examples.
I don’t expect Hastak to be “perfect”, I’ve given them plenty of credit, especially recently (in the last couple years) but I sure as hell don’t 100% believe everything they say.

Here are my thoughts with the Dinobots being the design aesthetic exception in SS86:
Those guys were supposed to be in the regular line to begin with.
I mean, isn’t that part of what most would argue? That any and all SS86 figures were originally supposed to be in Kingdom??
The Dinobots (at least the two we currently have), were clearly planned before SS86 was created… I don’t for a second believe the opposite. I’d even say Sludge was probably in embryonic stages, and that the sales from SS86 made him pretty much a no-brainer, greenlight-go decision. Hell, at this point, the other two are probably in the works no matter which line they show up in.
But if the Dinobots were originally going to be a part of Kingdom, then weird, that would help explain why they have so much greebling compared to the others in SS86.
So what about those worthless pack-in figures that are very much ’86 movie-related?
Minus the addition of literally two small pegs and ports, those little figures required zero changes to the Dinobots themselves.
Producing a non-transforming, barely articulated figure with a couple basic types of joints didn't exactly require some marvelous feat of engineering.
Those aren’t really much more than designing multi-part weapons.
Meaning being a relatively “late addition” to help the Dinobots more cohesively fit into SS86 was by no means some difficult task.
Think about it… Even for being non-converting, those pack-in figures suck. They scream “last minute effort” and “after-thought”.

Besides, when deciding to add the SS86 subline and in-turn the resulting shift of figures/characters, what was Hastak going to do, throw BW Megatron into a SS86 leader slot and repaint him as “Grimlock”?? Unless Hastak was going to repack OP, Magnus, and/or Astrotrain again, there literally wasn’t another good option…
And if you’re going to ask, “But if this difference of less greebling is important to the SS86 line, why didn’t they remove it from the Dinobots?”.
My answer is that Hastak decided, “We’re adding in a pack-in figure, the pegs/ports necessary to attach it to the Dinobot, replacing the transparent yellow parts, altering a few paint apps, and calling it good”.
And if you still think this sounds completely outlandish…
Well weird, where are we seeing something extremely similar??
“We’re adding pack-in’s to justify leader class price, replacing the original hands with hands that have one joint, adding an extra set of null rays, altering a few paint apps, and calling it good”. Nope, no changes to molded greebling.
Again, Hastak figured the coronation gear was good enough.
They don't even have to justify anything. They just do it.

Even IF this isn’t the case with the Dinobots, no one can deny this happened with Starscream.
I’m sure I’m not alone in thinking a similar situation will happen with SS86 Ironhide and Arcee.
Along with this, consider the bizarre ’86 Kup and Cliffjumper releases in Buzzworthy.
I’m not expecting to ever get an answer, but sure, I’d be interested to hear how Hastak would explain those if there’s a supposed reason beyond wanting more money.
No, I’m not complaining about those releases… I want both of those figures. “So why does it matter?”… It really doesn’t, but that’s obviously not why it was mentioned. It goes back to my point that I don’t always believe what a company “blatantly states”.
“SS86 is a line of figures composed of really screen-accurate versions of characters that were in the ’86 movie.”
So after SS86 Kup has been released and repacked in the SS86 line, why is there an even more screen-accurate version being released in a different, exclusive-to-one-store line??
Again, Hastak can shift things however they want to. Which I get, “Who cares?”… Again, the point being, in a situation where there’s no proof other than “Hastak’s word”, that’s not always legit justification. It's just not. It's like a lazy parent saying, "...Because I said so."

But either way, Cyclonus, Galvatron, Scourge, Hot Rod, Kup, Blurr, Jazz, Wreck-gar, and Gnaw were all designed with a less random-greeble design approach. No matter what anyone says, I can literally see the difference because it's there. If someone can’t, I guess oh well.

Sowndwave76 wrote:And I definitely could be incorrectly remembering about the Coronation SS prototype; it may have been his chest/torso that was going to be remolded, but either way, there was a proposed change on a shown prototype, and I don’t remember it being the shoulders (they were covered by the new pieces). The photo I saw this in was a posted screenshot from a video where that figure was talked about and shown by a Hastak rep. But the altered parts were not painted, and were a darker colored plastic.

Having gone back and double-checked the reveal of Coronation Screamer: there was no Screamer prototype shown at all, let alone one with different-colored remolded parts. The only physical prototype displayed in that reveal was Perceptor.

Sowndwave76 wrote:Trying to say the Siege greebling is the same as the subtle details seen on the SS86 figures is what I don't agree with.
Because it's clearly different.

It's really not.

Sowndwave76 wrote:But look at any Siege figure, then the photo that was recently posted of Scourge and Cyclonus and you’ll see the difference. And if not, well, that doesn't mean differences don't exist. Of course those two (and any SS86 figures) are going to have some molded detail... These aren’t recent MP figures… But I say "some" lightly, because it's subtle. There’s substantially less, and where you do see detail, it’s more intentional in appearance (weird, probably because it’s not overdone).
The greebling on figures like Astrotrain, Refraktor, the modulators, the seekers, and lots of others, looks like space-filler. Or maybe a better term is surface-filler.
With those, someone at Hastak decided to go with the "more is more" design approach. And I'm not here trying to label it 'good' or 'bad'. But it's there. And of course you can put SS86 and Siege figures in the same display to "go together"... That again doesn't prove anything. I have CW Magnus with my SS86 figures.

I see no difference, all I see is that you've decided there's a difference based off of some subjective criteria you came up with and you can't let it go. Multiple people have told you repeatedly that they see no difference, and you keep going "but compare them and you'll see" even though we have already done exactly that.

Sowndwave76 wrote:*long rant about whether what Hasbro says is 100% true*

...not entirely sure how this is relevant.

Sowndwave76 wrote:Here are my thoughts with the Dinobots being the design aesthetic exception in SS86:
Those guys were supposed to be in the regular line to begin with.
I mean, isn’t that part of what most would argue? That any and all SS86 figures were originally supposed to be in Kingdom??

Correct.

Sowndwave76 wrote:The Dinobots (at least the two we currently have), were clearly planned before SS86 was created… I don’t for a second believe the opposite. I’d even say Sludge was probably in embryonic stages, and that the sales from SS86 made him pretty much a no-brainer, greenlight-go decision. Hell, at this point, the other two are probably in the works no matter which line they show up in.
But if the Dinobots were originally going to be a part of Kingdom, then weird, that would help explain why they have so much greebling compared to the others in SS86.

...but the other SS86 releases would have also been in Kingdom with them. Do you think they only got the Dinobots and maybe Scourge done before they split the lines, and implemented this new design criteria/aesthetic then with the figures they hadn't worked on yet?

Like, if they were the same line as we have been informed, then Wave 1 would have been:
Deluxe: Warpath, 2 picks out of Blurr/Kup/Jazz, Weaponizer/Modulator equivalent (assuming the Fossilizers became what they were specifically when Beast Wars got thrown into the mix)
Voyager: Cyclonus, either Hot Rod or Scourge
Leader: Grimlock, probably still the Optimus repack
For this to occur, all of these would have had to have been designed at the same time...which supports that differences in the amount of "greebling" is just on a per-figure basis as it has been already for the last 2 parts of WFC, not some sort of separate design mentality. Otherwise, why do only half of the Deluxes and Voyagers have this mentality behind them when the Leaders and other halves of the Deluxes/Voyagers don't?

Sowndwave76 wrote:Even IF this isn’t the case with the Dinobots, no one can deny this happened with Starscream.
I’m sure I’m not alone in thinking a similar situation will happen with SS86 Ironhide and Arcee.

Yeah, because SS86 is just more WFC/spillover from WFC, so of course the molds are just reused/retooled to fit the current theme, that's exactly what they did with Siege molds to get ER Ironhide, Ratchet, & Megatron, Netflix Soundwave (which was stated by leakers to originally have been planned as a regular ER figure), Laserbeak, & Ravage, and Kingdom Sideswipe, Red Alert, Mirage, & Magnus.

Sowndwave76 wrote:But either way, Cyclonus, Galvatron, Scourge, Hot Rod, Kup, Blurr, Jazz, Wreck-gar, and Gnaw were all designed with a less random-greeble design approach. No matter what anyone says, I can literally see the difference because it's there.

Continuing to repeat it won't make it true, and again, 2 of those aren't SS86 figures anyway, which means they don't support your "SS86 has a different aesthetic" argument, it only adds to the proof that there is no different design mentality at play.

Sowndwave76 wrote:I also don’t always care what a company has “blatantly said”.
It’s at least somewhat unlikely for a huge company to publicly own its mistakes, mis-steps, or put out any sort of vibe that a curve-ball type situation wasn’t planned for or handled in the 100% best way possible. This doesn’t mean I think Hastak (or almost any company) exaggerates or lies about everything. Even large corporations deserve a little wiggle-room from time to time… Demanding or expecting “perfection” from a company is silly.
But Hastak also said SS86 figures would be representations of the characters from the movie, so that’s why Dinobots won’t come with swords… Then Gnaw arrives with a blaster.
Roughly 15 years ago, “The seeker characters in this Botcon set will never be regular retail release figures”… Then what, maybe a year and a half to two years later……
Plus every remotely similar situation between these two examples.
I don’t expect Hastak to be “perfect”, I’ve given them plenty of credit, especially recently (in the last couple years) but I sure as hell don’t 100% believe everything they say.

While I agree with Nemesis Primal about the relevance of this (unless you're arguing about the line split between Kingdom and SS86?) An important fact is that the part of Hasbro that says these things change (Aaron Archer was in charge I believe when the Botcon Thundercracker happened, and of course he gave way to John Warden, who has given way to...do we know who the new guy is?). So saying you don't trust hasbro because of something that happened that long ago is very silly.

Also, if memory serves, it was Takara who made non-exclusive Thundercracker first and then Hasbro a little while later. All three of them had differing decos amazingly enough.

As to your other points, Nemesis Primal has offered a better rebuttal then I could. You seem to be in the minority of seeing a difference between the two lines.

Sowndwave76 wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:Is it important to you that you believe that they're different? Will it change how you feel about the characters?

As for screamer, there was nothing ever said about his legs, in fact the initial rumours only claimed that his shoulders had been altered to fit the cape. That's why a lot of us whers surprised to see his hands had been altered.

I'd still say the throne is meant for someone else though

there was a proposed change on a shown prototype

There was no such thing.

A prototype was shown but it was specifically pointed out that anything that didn't look right was because it was one of those test models which don't look like the finished product. Those often lack molded details and are made in random colours, which can also mask molded details. It in no way represented any change proposed at anytime but it didn't stop fans from wrongly interpreting what was shown and jumping to conclusions.

Maybe that's why Hasbro prefers being late on reveals rather than pre-emptive, some fans misconstrue what they show (like that Predaking prototype which had no details and made idiots go nuts).

ZeroWolf wrote:(Aaron Archer was in charge I believe when the Botcon Thundercracker happened, and of course he gave way to John Warden, who has given way to...do we know who the new guy is?).

Right after Warden it was briefly Lenny Panzica, but he apparently moved on to other things after designing a small number of Wave 1 Legacy figures, and now it's Mark Maher.

Sure, the prototype shown in the screenshot I saw maybe didn't actually show proposed changes. There's no way of knowing. It's just interesting, then why was any of it a different colored plastic?
I guess because the shoulders were retooled and that affected other parts?

Fine, call my Botcon example "silly", but citing that and everything that situation involved-- including plenty of frustrated collectors who thought they had purchased a really rare (indefinitely rare) set of figures-- actually isn't silly. It's shows that my point has happened over a long period of time, and is much more substantial than Gnaw coming with a blaster. Some would say that example is the opposite of silly. Hastak is going to say and/or do whatever they want. Believing what they say 100% of time... That's just not me. That's not to suggest I only believe them 5% of the time.
I don't remember when Takara released TC, but Generations Thrust was released in 2009, Dirge was 2010.

It's obvious my point in a visual difference in certain figures was missed...
I cited Cyclonus and Galvatron in that last list because no matter what anyone wants to claim, those two share stylings more closely with SS86 figures than Siege or Kingdom figures.
Was Cylconus even in any Kingdom episodes?? Either way, it's undisputable that both he and Galvatron are much, much more associated with the '86 movie. Outside of maybe comics (I'm not at all familiar with comic canon), the movie is literally their origin stories...
To think there's no way they were possibly designed slightly differently to match the others I put on that list, and/or shifted to Kingdom when changes were made... Whatever.

I found the photos I posted a while back:



4 (and technically 7) of the most prominent lines on Cyclonus's lower leg (not including the octagon near the knee area) are for the landing gear. Which still isn't even that much, but that's appearance due to function, not just aesthetic based on visual design.
Looks to me like there is more molded detail in Starscream's lower leg.



Does someone really want to say that the five circles on Starscream's crotch/waist plate aren't extra??
That there are relatively the same amount of molded details on the torsos of these two figures?
Hell, don't include Starscreams upper torso/chest. Those details are to be expected.
And any objective comparison is still lop-sided.

I came across these next two images last night on Instagram.
*I get it; they're customs... The work that's been done emphasizes the greebling...
The fact is, it's still there. In this first "Fallen Earth SS", someone did a lot of breaking of various parts, but as far as I can see and tell, neither creator carved into the plastic to add lines or extra "molded" details.

Ignore the damaged areas... If you just look at the legs, torso, shoulders, left forearm... That's greebling.
Again, tell me, or better yet, prove that there's anywhere close to that amount of molded details on Cyclonus, Scourge, Wreck-gar, etc. Take out Starscream's wings.. Yeah, Wreck-gar doesn't have wings and so there's less overall surface area. So just compare the torsos, legs, shoulders, and arms.


While most would consider the null rays a vital part of Starscream (or seekers in general), take those out of the equation of this next image.
Same thing... This doesn't show substantially more molded detail than the figures I've mentioned???
You think if you filled the lines and details of the figures I've mentioned with a black ink wash, that you'd see anywhere close to this same amount of detail???


I just went over to another site, did a basic search, and between a handful of pages of the same topic/thread, found these posts. I can only imagine this is a small sampling of how many times this has actually been talked about by dozens of people.
All of these were posted on Nov. 7th of 2021... Less than 3 months ago.
I can't prove right now that none of these are my own posts... If I ever get really bored, I'll look up what my username was. I'm positive I've haven't posted on that site since at least 2016, possibly since before 2010. I literally can't remember... But I assume my username had something related to Soundwave.







I'm sure this opinion of differences in figures is the minority. Fine. But that doesn't make it invalid.
Again, this difference doesn't matter much. And I'm sure there will be some that still deny it.
But to say this is just a "rant", and 100% false, and completely unsubstantiated and groundless is truly absurd.

Sabrblade wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:(Aaron Archer was in charge I believe when the Botcon Thundercracker happened, and of course he gave way to John Warden, who has given way to...do we know who the new guy is?).

Right after Warden it was briefly Lenny Panzica, but he apparently moved on to other things after designing a small number of Wave 1 Legacy figures, and now it's Mark Maher.

Thanks Sabrblade!

These posts just keep getting longer, so I'm not going to quote the whole post again for the sake of not subjecting people to a novel. That being said:

Still don't see what this Botcon/Hasbro going back on their word argument has to do with this conversation.

Your point wasn't "missed", it just isn't agreed with.

You're still ignoring/not listening to the two main points of my counterargument:
1. The G1 figures in Kingdom and the SS86 figures were meant to be the same line (which we all agree on), which means that they all have to have been designed at the same time in order to release together, and since we know that Hasbro plans line contents and starts design work in advance based on how early things keep leaking, the only way there could be a different design aesthetic/mentality behind any of the 2021 SS86 figures compared to the WFC figures they were supposed to release with would be if Hasbro actively scrapped the design work they had done on the figures going to SS86 and started over again to use the new aesthetic....which it seems like they clearly didn't, judging by figures like the Dinobots, Jazz, & Scourge/Sweep.
2. Individual SS86 & WFC figures having a different amount of molded detailing compared to each other doesn't prove that they were somehow designed differently, because the amount of molded detailing present on individual figures has been inconsistent for the ENTIRETY of WFC, even within individual waves.
Look at Siege: Chromia has more detailing than Starscream who has more detailing than Soundwave who has more detailing than Prowl.
Look at Earthrise: Ironworks has more detailing than Starscream who has more detailing than Grapple who has more detailing than Cliffjumper.
Look at Kingdom/SS86: Warpath has more detailing than Scourge who has more detailing than Jazz who has more detailing than Cyclonus.
Compare the different segments of WFC even: Siege Screamer has more detailing than ER Screamer who has more detailing than Kingdom/SS86 Cyclonus, yes, but Cyclonus also has more detailing than ER Cliffjumper who has more detailing than Siege Sideswipe.
That's not actually a different aesthetic at all, that's just a difference in detail on a per-figure basis, which is therefore consistent.

Also, repeatedly ending these posts with "it doesn't actually matter" and then continuing to argue about it is a contradiction. Clearly you do care, otherwise you wouldn't keep bringing it up and fighting this uphill battle, so I don't understand why you keep throwing that in at the end.

Nemesis Primal wrote:1. The G1 figures in Kingdom and the SS86 figures were meant to be the same line (which we all agree on), which means that they all have to have been designed at the same time in order to release together, and since we know that Hasbro plans line contents and starts design work in advance based on how early things keep leaking, the only way there could be a different design aesthetic/mentality behind any of the 2021 SS86 figures compared to the WFC figures they were supposed to release with would be if Hasbro actively scrapped the design work they had done on the figures going to SS86 and started over again to use the new aesthetic....which it seems like they clearly didn't, judging by figures like the Dinobots, Jazz, & Scourge/Sweep.

Which brings me to asking this: WHEN in the design process did the split happen? Early enough for some of the preliminary detail work in the sketches to be smoothed out for SS86 when reassigned?

Sowndwave76 wrote:Sure, the prototype shown in the screenshot I saw maybe didn't actually show proposed changes. There's no way of knowing. It's just interesting, then why was any of it a different colored plastic?
I guess because the shoulders were retooled and that affected other parts?

It's a good point and something I had wondered as well. I have no answer for you.

Jelze Bunnycat wrote:

Nemesis Primal wrote:1. The G1 figures in Kingdom and the SS86 figures were meant to be the same line (which we all agree on), which means that they all have to have been designed at the same time in order to release together, and since we know that Hasbro plans line contents and starts design work in advance based on how early things keep leaking, the only way there could be a different design aesthetic/mentality behind any of the 2021 SS86 figures compared to the WFC figures they were supposed to release with would be if Hasbro actively scrapped the design work they had done on the figures going to SS86 and started over again to use the new aesthetic....which it seems like they clearly didn't, judging by figures like the Dinobots, Jazz, & Scourge/Sweep.

Which brings me to asking this: WHEN in the design process did the split happen? Early enough for some of the preliminary detail work in the sketches to be smoothed out for SS86 when reassigned?

We don't have an explicit answer for this timeline, so that is theoretically possible, but if they did intentionally decide to do that and had the time to do so (and assuming I believed that to be the case), then my question becomes why did they not do it for ALL of them? I just don't see why they would go through the effort to implement a change like that for only some of the Deluxes and Voyagers but NOT apply it to the Dinobots (who already stick out by size and would therefore make the discrepancy more noticeable), other than the lack of consistency itself actually being consistent with WFC and therefore not a change/"new aesthetic" at all.

Jelze Bunnycat wrote:

Nemesis Primal wrote:1. The G1 figures in Kingdom and the SS86 figures were meant to be the same line (which we all agree on), which means that they all have to have been designed at the same time in order to release together, and since we know that Hasbro plans line contents and starts design work in advance based on how early things keep leaking, the only way there could be a different design aesthetic/mentality behind any of the 2021 SS86 figures compared to the WFC figures they were supposed to release with would be if Hasbro actively scrapped the design work they had done on the figures going to SS86 and started over again to use the new aesthetic....which it seems like they clearly didn't, judging by figures like the Dinobots, Jazz, & Scourge/Sweep.

Which brings me to asking this: WHEN in the design process did the split happen? Early enough for some of the preliminary detail work in the sketches to be smoothed out for SS86 when reassigned?

All of those comparisons and any others still don't mean any of the SS86 figures I've mentioned (again, not the Dinobots) have as much molded detail as any of those others.
So thanks for adding to my point.

That along with saying Hastak has been inconsistent... Yeah, there's a chance that an inconsistency is "accidental". No doubt. I'll even stretch that a little and say "accidental" meaning a shift in the plan for a line potentially changes time frames and thus, the release schedule for specific figures. But with that list you just provided, there's no way all of those differences were accidents.
So if any of that was intentional, then as Jelze just said, the "smoothing" or smoothed-out appearance for SS86 was by no means an "accidental" or unintentional change.


When I said "I didn't care", and especially "It doesn't matter very much", I was referring to the differences in the look of these figures, as well as whether or not someone can actually recognize them.
Obviously I've cared about making my points. Not sure why you would point that out now...
But you have missed stuff from my posts. Either that, or you don't have legit answers for all of them.
But now I really am done with this conversation.



Jelze, I know you don't mind a bit of speculation, so I'll throw this out there...
Isn't there just a chance that the SS86 figures I mentioned were actually planned for something outside of the Kingdom line??
This example is different, because they were just repaints... But I think about 35th Anniversary OP, Megs, and Soundblaster... Were there any others in that packaging??
But aren't there plenty of G1 characters that could've been placed into Kingdom?
Not to mention, the last wave of Kingdom figures, could've been bumped-up schedule-wise, and this 5th wave just would've been the 4th and final?
It doesn't seem super intentional that the last wave of Kingdom is what we're getting at the start of a calendar year...

But SS86 (under maybe a different name) could've been a small, celebratory line:
Leader: Galvatron
Voyagers: Cyclonus and Hot Rod (and maybe Springer?)
Deluxes: Kup, Blurr, Scourge
With all new molds, I guess you wouldn't want these to be a store exclusive line...


Anyway, just thinking about that since your question is really legit...
When did the change in aesthetics happen???
-OR-
Was there never a change in these figures' aesthetics to begin with???

These characters where never going to end up anywhere else but Kingdom for a very simple reason:

Because it was the movies anniversary year, and it was the year that HasLab Unicron descended. It was probably worked out that way on purpose (before hasbro realised that it was an anniversary for Beast Wars, one that wouldn't likely screw over again). I don't understand why you seem to need the approval that they were always different, each with their own level of detail (as Nemesis Primal said, its been inconsistent across WfC, meaning the designers have looked at the figure and decided what needed what).
If you look at the Trilogy as a whole, the third part being the movie focus, becomes crystal clear.

It's all the same to me. Yes, some figures have extra detail ('greebling'?), which I don't have a problem with because they don't look like they don't belong together.

Vis a vis closed/open boxes, i don't care. It's not actually new. Also, while the Cyberverse figures have no windows, Voyager Hot Rod's redesigned box has plastic. It's just significantly less plastic, roughly equal to Kingdom.

ZeroWolf wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:(Aaron Archer was in charge I believe when the Botcon Thundercracker happened, and of course he gave way to John Warden, who has given way to...do we know who the new guy is?).

Right after Warden it was briefly Lenny Panzica, but he apparently moved on to other things after designing a small number of Wave 1 Legacy figures, and now it's Mark Maher.

Thanks Sabrblade!

They should really only hire people with memorable names like Archer and Warden. Maybe the next person should have the name Constable or Knight.

Emerje

Serious question, how does any of this matter? Like really.
What matters is this leader Starscream release gives us the very vital info that Hasbro does currently intend these lines to be unified. So, we don't have to expect a new Prowl mold in SS86, for instance.

....Sowndwave, I feel like I'm losing understanding of your argument/logic the longer this goes on, so I'm also going to move on, but in response to your last bit:

Sowndwave76 wrote:Isn't there just a chance that the SS86 figures I mentioned were actually planned for something outside of the Kingdom line??
This example is different, because they were just repaints... But I think about 35th Anniversary OP, Megs, and Soundblaster... Were there any others in that packaging??

Bluestreak also came out that way, but those weren't a separate line from WFC/Siege, they just had the 35th thing on the packaging in addition to all of the Siege branding and being included in the WFC numbering.

Sowndwave76 wrote:Not to mention, the last wave of Kingdom figures, could've been bumped-up schedule-wise, and this 5th wave just would've been the 4th and final?
It doesn't seem super intentional that the last wave of Kingdom is what we're getting at the start of a calendar year...

Kingdom actually was going to be 4 waves when it first leaked, with Slammer and Pipes in Wave 4 with Waspinator and Shadow Panther, but the line got extended at the behest of retailers due to good sales, which caused planned Kingdom figures to get shuffled around (Slammer and Pipes) and figures that would have been coming out at the time anyway to get rebranded into Kingdom (Legacy Hot Rod and Blaster) to fill/create Wave 5. The same exact thing happened with Siege Wave 5, which saw Astrotrain, Rung, Spinister, Apeface, and the Micromasters get pulled forwards from Earthrise and Crosshairs get pulled from Selects (based on product numbers + rereleases).

Sowndwave76 wrote:But SS86 (under maybe a different name) could've been a small, celebratory line:
Leader: Galvatron
Voyagers: Cyclonus and Hot Rod (and maybe Springer?)
Deluxes: Kup, Blurr, Scourge
With all new molds, I guess you wouldn't want these to be a store exclusive line...

Just out of curiosity, who would you have wanted in Kingdom/WFC if Cyclonus and Galvatron were separate?

...I feel like I'm a tad too late to the party, but I took pics of a bunch of SS86 and WFC figures and traced over all of their greeble (considered as any detailing not on the G1 character model, alt mode detail, or parts/transformation seams). Interpret them as you will.

(Pics sourced from the Seibertron, the internet at large, and myself)

Hit an attachment limit on the previous post, so here's part 2:

Thanks Tuned Agent, that's a great help actually.

Huh, look at that, it's almost like the amount differs on a per-figure basis. Who could have foreseen this.

The yellow actually makes Cyclonus look much better. And it looks like Grimlock and Starscream got the worst of it.

Thanks for posting those, Turned Agent.
Definitely helps prove my point.

ZeroWolf wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:(Aaron Archer was in charge I believe when the Botcon Thundercracker happened, and of course he gave way to John Warden, who has given way to...do we know who the new guy is?).

Right after Warden it was briefly Lenny Panzica, but he apparently moved on to other things after designing a small number of Wave 1 Legacy figures, and now it's Mark Maher.

Thanks Sabrblade!

I wonder how these guys feel about some random shlubs knowing their names and what they do.

chuckdawg1999 wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:(Aaron Archer was in charge I believe when the Botcon Thundercracker happened, and of course he gave way to John Warden, who has given way to...do we know who the new guy is?).

Right after Warden it was briefly Lenny Panzica, but he apparently moved on to other things after designing a small number of Wave 1 Legacy figures, and now it's Mark Maher.

Thanks Sabrblade!

I wonder how these guys feel about some random shlubs knowing their names and what they do.

I suppose it depends on what kind of person they are, if they aren't completely new then they saw the attention Warden got over these past few years
The better question would be do they take any notice of what we say anyway?

Nemesis Primal wrote:Huh, look at that, it's almost like the amount differs on a per-figure basis. Who could have foreseen this.

Sowndwave76 wrote:Thanks for posting those, Turned Agent.
Definitely helps prove my point.

I'm not quite sure how we ended up at this point, but I do find this interesting.

ZeroWolf wrote:

Nemesis Primal wrote:Huh, look at that, it's almost like the amount differs on a per-figure basis. Who could have foreseen this.

Sowndwave76 wrote:Thanks for posting those, Turned Agent.
Definitely helps prove my point.

I'm not quite sure how we ended up at this point, but I do find this interesting.

I'm so happy I know what the Foe list does now, so this illogical argument where blatant counter-evidence somehow helps the argument it counters can never hurt me or my inner Shockwave again. I learned something from this!

MOVING on, considering we've now already seen 2/3 of the new SS86 figures for this year's Wave 2 early (and 1/2 of the non-86 new figures got an actual reveal kinda), how long do we think until Sludge pics show up in some capacity? I'm curious to see if the SS86 Dinobot Curse of coming with a weird little non-transforming plastic gremlin has been broken by the fact that Sludge is the biggest one.

Nemesis Primal wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:

Nemesis Primal wrote:Huh, look at that, it's almost like the amount differs on a per-figure basis. Who could have foreseen this.

Sowndwave76 wrote:Thanks for posting those, Turned Agent.
Definitely helps prove my point.

I'm not quite sure how we ended up at this point, but I do find this interesting.

I'm so happy I know what the Foe list does now, so this illogical argument where blatant counter-evidence somehow helps the argument it counters can never hurt me or my inner Shockwave again. I learned something from this!

MOVING on, considering we've now already seen 2/3 of the new SS86 figures for this year's Wave 2 early (and 1/2 of the non-86 new figures got an actual reveal kinda), how long do we think until Sludge pics show up in some capacity? I'm curious to see if the SS86 Dinobot Curse of coming with a weird little non-transforming plastic gremlin has been broken by the fact that Sludge is the biggest one.

First part of what you said:
I'm now picturing a mini shockwave on your shoulder.

The rest:

I'd be surprised if we don't see him soon, he may have been one of the planned reveals at the now cancelled toy fair. We'll see him either at a fans first Friday or a Transformers Tuesday. Seeing how he's a big ticket item (literally) I can see it being the former rather the latter.

Also, I don't think they'll have need for a pack in, his alt mode needs all the plastic.

A moot point, but Hasbro pulled out of Toy Fair before its cancellation. Just saying...

When is the next official reveal anyway?

william-james88 wrote:So, we don't have to expect a new Prowl mold in SS86, for instance.

But the WFC deco doesn't look like this...

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

william-james88 wrote:So, we don't have to expect a new Prowl mold in SS86, for instance.

But the WFC deco doesn't look like this...

Too soon, man, too soon