Rise of the Beasts Director Confirms that Continuity is not a Concern within the Transformers Film Franchise
Saturday, July 15th, 2023 11:17PM CDT
Category: Movie Related NewsPosted by: william-james88 Views: 44,845
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Well, for those wanting a real answer, Steven Caple Jr has one: Continuity in this franchise DOES NOT MATTER. Even though this is all the same film series, the events will not match up, because each movie or series of movies focuses on their own thing. They should instead be treated as stand-alones. And not just the new films, but the previous Bay films too. Below is the transcript of that part of the interview, within the Empire Podcast Spoiler Special with Steven Caple Jr, where continuity is discussed.
Interviewer: In terms of the continuity of the franchise, are you worried about matching it up with the first Bay film, which suggests that Optimus has never been to earth before…
Caple Jr: … But now it’s kinda broken already. For me, I’m not like fully worried about it. There are things I would love to stay within that line, but at a certain point, we all know it, Bay has admitted it, I had certain conversations with him like, in terms of tracking the storyline by movie 3, 4 and 5 (5 specifically i would say), now it’s kinda like …
Interviewer: … they were freestyling it
Caple Jr: They were freestyling. Unicron is planet earth, it was things like that. Cool conceptually but that’s a lot to unravel and will we ever see Unicron? Cause now it’s Earth. Probably a reason why they stopped right there. So like, for me, I’m not worried about it, it’s about what’s best for the movie. For me, I have my classics. We got movie 1 with Sam witwicky, it’s a classic. Then we got 3, some of the best action I’ve seen in any movie, best Transformers battles, like it was really good. Those are the movies, they’re like stand-alones. For us, we just make sure about our story and if it tracks through each one [we make]. If we try to hold ourselves to what another storyline/ timeline was, we’d definitely be in trouble. Cause at a certain point, I don’t think anyone knew exactly where they were going with 4 and 5.
What you just read is the new official take on the matter of continuity: that it does not matter. You'll see that the word reboot is not uttered because that's not what anyone making these films want to convey either. This film, Bumblebee, AOE, TLK, and the initial trilogy are all their own stories within the same franchise, but with no need to connect perfectly to eachother. They are all constant (soft) reboots in their own way, if you want to see it that way, but also all (soft) reboots of Bayverse. So the Bayverse is far from dead, it is instead fragmented, and anything can happen from here on out. So have fun with that take.
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Posted by Silver Wind on July 16th, 2023 @ 1:26am CDT
Posted by noctorro on July 16th, 2023 @ 4:32am CDT
I would love for a team to take Transformers seriously and of course for them to be competent (unlike the netflix show, my god the writing is some of the worst I've ever seen).
Transformers needs a reboot, and a different top management. The same buttfaces are still in charge of the movie franchise and as long as they are there, all Transformers movies will suffer.
Posted by Lore Keeper on July 16th, 2023 @ 5:05am CDT
Posted by -Kanrabat- on July 16th, 2023 @ 5:23am CDT
Lore Keeper wrote:"We're not concerned with continuity" is writer speak for "We're not competent enough to write a compelling serialized story, so we'll just make a bunch of unconnected stories about whatever we want."
Exactly. The MCU was able to do it for over a decade, and it's still going. So why can't Transformers?
Posted by william-james88 on July 16th, 2023 @ 6:10am CDT
-Kanrabat- wrote:Lore Keeper wrote:"We're not concerned with continuity" is writer speak for "We're not competent enough to write a compelling serialized story, so we'll just make a bunch of unconnected stories about whatever we want."
Exactly. The MCU was able to do it for over a decade, and it's still going. So why can't Transformers?
Probably because they wrote themselves into a story they no longer want to follow
Posted by blackeyedprime on July 16th, 2023 @ 9:12am CDT
Posted by TulioDude on July 16th, 2023 @ 9:44am CDT
There has been this back and foward with this subject. I'm not sure if I believe it 100%.
We will know for sure when they announce the next film.
Posted by Brokebot on July 16th, 2023 @ 12:43pm CDT
Posted by bluecatcinema on July 16th, 2023 @ 2:23pm CDT
Posted by Slashercon on July 16th, 2023 @ 2:40pm CDT
bluecatcinema wrote:I have no problem with this. Considering the mess the original series became near the end, the chance to overlook some of it is welcome.
I do have a problem with this considering the same mistakes that began to plague the original series will begin to fester in the new series. Playing loose and fast with continuity is why a good number of fans get disinterested with Ips like Star Wars, The MCU, The DCEU, and even as recent as Rise of the Beasts. And considering that ROTB isn't doing too well at the Box Office, this does not bode well for the future films. When you tell the audience that you don't care, they shouldn't be surprised when audiences show that they don't care.
Posted by bluecatcinema on July 16th, 2023 @ 2:42pm CDT
Slashercon wrote:bluecatcinema wrote:I have no problem with this. Considering the mess the original series became near the end, the chance to overlook some of it is welcome.
I do have a problem with this considering the same mistakes that began to plague the original series will begin to fester in the new series. Playing loose and fast with continuity is why a good number of fans get disinterested with Ips like Star Wars, The MCU, The DCEU, and even as recent as Rise of the Beasts. And considering that ROTB isn't doing too well at the Box Office, this does not bode well for the future films. When you tell the audience that you don't care, they shouldn't be surprised when audiences show that they don't care.
The only continuity point that has been altered is the whole "Unicron is Earth" thing at the end of TLK. All things considered, not that big a loss...
Posted by DeathReviews on July 16th, 2023 @ 2:44pm CDT
Posted by Brokebot on July 16th, 2023 @ 2:45pm CDT
Slashercon wrote:bluecatcinema wrote:I have no problem with this. Considering the mess the original series became near the end, the chance to overlook some of it is welcome.
I do have a problem with this considering the same mistakes that began to plague the original series will begin to fester in the new series. Playing loose and fast with continuity is why a good number of fans get disinterested with Ips like Star Wars, The MCU, The DCEU, and even as recent as Rise of the Beasts. And considering that ROTB isn't doing too well at the Box Office, this does not bode well for the future films. When you tell the audience that you don't care, they shouldn't be surprised when audiences show that they don't care.
Well said. Just because something original devolved into a mess is not justification to repeat the same nonsense. If you're using an IP to attract the built-in fanbase, but show that you don't give a damn about them or the story, you just ruin the IP.
Posted by cloudballoon on July 16th, 2023 @ 3:11pm CDT
I discarded Bay's 4 & 5 from memory already minutes after their end credits. Don't even care to own them on media or digitally.
I never cared to argue with anyone whether BBM/ROTB is or is not a reboot. They SHOULD have been, and still COULD have been in my head and that's it, anyone else can consider different and I respect that. Caple Jr. should capitalize on the good will of the BBM & ROTB fans and move the next live-action movies further away from Bayverse and start telling stories in new coherent timeline. Don't jump all over the place because "such & such concepts are cool, let bend it in."
Personally I don't mind Bay designs for the Decepticons & Terrorcons factions (still need more colors). But the Autobots should continue to look like the BBM Cybertron ones or more humanoid, as being the "good guys" and thus need the connections with human, that's the way to go. Pay hommage to Bay & G1 designs to please most fans, but scrap the plot links to Bay is the smart move imo.
Posted by Sabrblade on July 16th, 2023 @ 4:49pm CDT
And even then, there's the notion that ROTB Unicron was technically from the future, suggesting he eventually gets out of the Earth in some later era.bluecatcinema wrote:Slashercon wrote:bluecatcinema wrote:I have no problem with this. Considering the mess the original series became near the end, the chance to overlook some of it is welcome.
I do have a problem with this considering the same mistakes that began to plague the original series will begin to fester in the new series. Playing loose and fast with continuity is why a good number of fans get disinterested with Ips like Star Wars, The MCU, The DCEU, and even as recent as Rise of the Beasts. And considering that ROTB isn't doing too well at the Box Office, this does not bode well for the future films. When you tell the audience that you don't care, they shouldn't be surprised when audiences show that they don't care.
The only continuity point that has been altered is the whole "Unicron is Earth" thing at the end of TLK. All things considered, not that big a loss...
But, yeah, simply ignoring TLK is best for everyone's sanity.
Posted by Tyrannacon on July 16th, 2023 @ 5:05pm CDT
I still haven't seen Rise of the Beasts. I am waiting for it to come to a streaming service like Netflix, Amazon Prime, Max, or Hulu even. It may be a great film, it might not be, but if you can't respect the continuity or be creative enough to care to tie it all together then what is the point? If I wanted spectacle I'd go to a theme park.
Coming to a point so I don't get anger and pitchforks, I get that a lot of people grew up with Bayformers and it served as their intro to the series, which is cool and fantastic. If people love ROTB, good. If people hate it, good too. Each piece of media functions as it should, as an ambassador of the brand, and from that people find something else they like or enjoy in the series that keeps them hooked. Beast Wars opened that door for me, and there are some good and bad elements of that too. In recent years I've been sampling and I found I enjoy most of what I see unless there are a lot of problems with it like the problems in the Bayverse with not respecting your continuity or your story.
Posted by cloudballoon on July 16th, 2023 @ 9:54pm CDT
Explosions alone don't sell a TF movie anymore I think. Bay's kind of action is so old-school now, the same non-sensical Bayplosion spectacles yield ever diminishing results in a franchise, it's just science. I got bored from the action, let alone the plot by TF3. And his views that robots are stupid, "people only interested in militarism & sexy people" (I'm paraphrasing) views are not fit for helming TF movies if you're looking for any depth for the bots imo.
But Bay did a good thing in giving Caple Jr. a fairly free rein in ROTB even though Bay's a Producer, credit where credit is due.
Way I see it, BBM is still a smart reboot, ROTB is a decent sequel to it. Pray that Caple Jr. don't mess up BBM's and his own continuity. Keep the scope of each movies manageable.
My ranking for fav live-action: #1 is a tie between '07 and BBM ('07 got the initial hype & now nostaglia, BBM is a better plotted story and got the better designs. Objectively I'd say BBM is definitive #1 in a few years), #3 is ROTB (not great, but competent enough, Caple Jr. is young as a director, give him room to grow), DOTM #4, ROTF #5. AOE & TLK don't deserve to be ranked as canon and best forgotten (other than some cool designs) for the sake of Bay.
Posted by AcademyofDrX on July 17th, 2023 @ 4:51pm CDT
Posted by First-Aid on July 17th, 2023 @ 4:57pm CDT
...you would think the Writers Guild could come up with something while they are walking the packet lines to increase their $295,000 median salaries.
Posted by Tyrannacon on July 17th, 2023 @ 9:27pm CDT
AcademyofDrX wrote:Continuity is for nerds. Either the story works, or it doesn't, and continuity doesn't have anything to do with it.
Thank you for acknowledging our supreme intellect over everyone else.
Nerds make the world work after all, it's high time we got some credit for that.
Posted by cloudballoon on July 17th, 2023 @ 10:12pm CDT
Caple Jr. *might* have a bit of that tendency too. As during one interview he was like "I want Unicorn on the big screen!" without making the case for it. I felt the theatrical release left out a whole lot of plot & character developments on the cutting floor. That's a sign of Caple Jr./script wrtiter taking in far more than one can chew for a movie.
Also, what's the case for WHY continuity is NOT important in a franchise (unless you're rebooting)?
Posted by Sabrblade on July 17th, 2023 @ 11:39pm CDT
Not only that, but how Bay executed those ideas was flippin' nuts, too. The man didn't have to put Nazi banners on Winston Churchill's estate in order to film the WWII scene. He chose that location to put them on.cloudballoon wrote:The ideas coming out of the Writer's Room are bad not because Bay used them, but due to Bay cramming as much of the ideas into his movies as possible like there's no tomorrow.
Yeah, the usage of Unicron in this movie kind of feels like a case where Caple simply let his inner fanboy do the talking instead of his director mindset.cloudballoon wrote:Caple Jr. *might* have a bit of that tendency too. As during one interview he was like "I want Unicorn on the big screen!" without making the case for it. I felt the theatrical release left out a whole lot of plot & character developments on the cutting floor. That's a sign of Caple Jr./script wrtiter taking in far more than one can chew for a movie.
Which, honestly, is pretty wild, considering how much of an anti-fan Bay was.
From this interview, it sounds like Caple is a fan of the first and third Bay movies, so is okay with not contradicting those, but would rather ignore AOE and TLK. Which, in a sense, is also an opinion held by a lot of us here in the fandom (preferring Movie 1 and DOTM over AOE and TLK, I mean).cloudballoon wrote:Also, what's the case for WHY continuity is NOT important in a franchise (unless you're rebooting)?
Posted by cloudballoon on July 18th, 2023 @ 2:20am CDT
Sabrblade wrote:Not only that, but how Bay executed those ideas was flippin' nuts, too. The man didn't have to put Nazi banners on Winston Churchill's estate in order to film the WWII scene. He chose that location to put them on.
That's an "It's OK to sh*t on BOTH allies & enemy" kind of American militarism/faux-patriotism/ignorance. Zero sensitivity.
Sabrblade wrote:Yeah, the usage of Unicron in this movie kind of feels like a case where Caple simply let his inner fanboy do the talking instead of his director mindset.
Spot on. It's what have me worried for the upcoming movies. Judging from all the bonus extra features released already, The ROTB theatrical cut's editing leave much to be desired. Paper-thin character development, bots with lines... I can image ROTB could've been much better, and it's kind of inexcusable given the added delay of a WHOLE year to improve on it.
Sabrblade wrote:It sounds like Caple is a fan of the first and third Bay movies, so is okay with not contradicting those, but would rather ignore AOE and TLK. Which, in a sense, is also an opinion held by a lot of us here in the fandom (preferring Movie 1 and DOTM over AOE and TLK, I mean).
As fans, WE can forget/ignore AOE and TLK. But as director/producer/IP holder, that's not the right approach to make a new continuity IMO. Caple Jr. can reveal plot points & character backgrounds in his new timeline that are exactly the same as some Bay ones (that he likes), but shoot it your own way. Can't just go and pick and choose some stuff from 5 Bay movies and discard the rest. It's way more confusing than just start over. Besides, Caple Jr. is just limiting himself with character selections too.
Posted by RotorstormNZ on July 18th, 2023 @ 2:23am CDT
william-james88 wrote:Well, for those wanting a real answer, Steven Caple Jr has one: Continuity in this franchise DOES NOT MATTER.Interviewer: In terms of the continuity of the franchise, are you worried about matching it up with the first Bay film, which suggests that Optimus has never been to earth before…
Caple Jr: … But now it’s kinda broken already. For me, I’m not like fully worried about it.
What you just read is the new official take on the matter of continuity: that it does not matter.
I'll be the one to beat the dead horse: I'm not seeing the director say that definitively.
Posted by First-Aid on July 18th, 2023 @ 10:20am CDT
cloudballoon wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Not only that, but how Bay executed those ideas was flippin' nuts, too. The man didn't have to put Nazi banners on Winston Churchill's estate in order to film the WWII scene. He chose that location to put them on.
That's an "It's OK to sh*t on BOTH allies & enemy" kind of American militarism/faux-patriotism/ignorance. Zero sensitivity.
I doubt there was that much thought in it. My suspicion is he simply liked the look of it, the availability of his favorite camera angles, and wasn't even aware it was Churchill's estate. Probably saw a picture of the place that was presented by a staff member and said, "that one works". I think you're giving him too much credit and spewing hate in a direction where it probably isn't warranted because of ignorance. Think of his "Smithsonian" scenes going into the aircraft graveyard in New Mexico, the Art Museum in Milwaukee being in NOT Milwaukee, etc. If he sees something he likes, I doubt he even gets as far as "what building is this" as opposed to "will I get good camera angles and will kilotons of exposives look cool here?"
Posted by Coptur on July 18th, 2023 @ 10:48am CDT
just proving he's a lazy c**t much like the modern marvel/dc comics and star trek.
Posted by Sabrblade on July 18th, 2023 @ 11:44am CDT
I mean, it's happened before. Like when Warner Bros. made Superman Returns a sequel to Superman 1 and 2, but chose to ignore Superman 3, 4, and Supergirl (in other words, the "bad" Superman movies of the time).cloudballoon wrote:As fans, WE can forget/ignore AOE and TLK. But as director/producer/IP holder, that's not the right approach to make a new continuity IMO. Caple Jr. can reveal plot points & character backgrounds in his new timeline that are exactly the same as some Bay ones (that he likes), but shoot it your own way. Can't just go and pick and choose some stuff from 5 Bay movies and discard the rest. It's way more confusing than just start over. Besides, Caple Jr. is just limiting himself with character selections too.
Oh, he definitely knew, and had to be a fool not to know. The filming of that scene stirred up some massive controversy long before the movie itself saw release. There were news stories and articles about the filming of that WWII scene in which locals were disgusted and outraged by the presence of those banners on that building, with Bay giving responses to the complaints in said news reports in order to justify his decisions about that scene. He knew exactly what he was doing.First-Aid wrote:cloudballoon wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Not only that, but how Bay executed those ideas was flippin' nuts, too. The man didn't have to put Nazi banners on Winston Churchill's estate in order to film the WWII scene. He chose that location to put them on.
That's an "It's OK to sh*t on BOTH allies & enemy" kind of American militarism/faux-patriotism/ignorance. Zero sensitivity.
I doubt there was that much thought in it. My suspicion is he simply liked the look of it, the availability of his favorite camera angles, and wasn't even aware it was Churchill's estate.
Posted by First-Aid on July 18th, 2023 @ 12:25pm CDT
Sabrblade wrote: had to be a fool not to know.
Well, it IS Michael Bay so...
My suspicion is he didn't know before the fact, only learning about the controversy after the scenes were shown, OR he didn't think it would be a big deal. He kind of lives in his own little world, like he majority of Hollywood.
Posted by Sabrblade on July 18th, 2023 @ 12:32pm CDT
Yeah, in those articles, he argued that the final presentation of the scene would honor the Allies and make Churchill proud.First-Aid wrote:Sabrblade wrote: had to be a fool not to know.
Well, it IS Michael Bay so...
My suspicion is he didn't know before the fact, only learning about the controversy after the scenes were shown, OR he didn't think it would be a big deal. He kind of lives in his own little world, like he majority of Hollywood.
Posted by First-Aid on July 18th, 2023 @ 12:33pm CDT
Sabrblade wrote:Yeah, in those articles, he argued that the final presentation of the scene would honor the Allies and make Churchill proud.First-Aid wrote:Sabrblade wrote: had to be a fool not to know.
Well, it IS Michael Bay so...
My suspicion is he didn't know before the fact, only learning about the controversy after the scenes were shown, OR he didn't think it would be a big deal. He kind of lives in his own little world, like he majority of Hollywood.
Well they did win...heh heh.
Posted by cloudballoon on July 18th, 2023 @ 3:30pm CDT
First-Aid wrote:cloudballoon wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Not only that, but how Bay executed those ideas was flippin' nuts, too. The man didn't have to put Nazi banners on Winston Churchill's estate in order to film the WWII scene. He chose that location to put them on.
That's an "It's OK to sh*t on BOTH allies & enemy" kind of American militarism/faux-patriotism/ignorance. Zero sensitivity.
I doubt there was that much thought in it. My suspicion is he simply liked the look of it, the availability of his favorite camera angles, and wasn't even aware it was Churchill's estate. Probably saw a picture of the place that was presented by a staff member and said, "that one works". I think you're giving him too much credit and spewing hate in a direction where it probably isn't warranted because of ignorance. Think of his "Smithsonian" scenes going into the aircraft graveyard in New Mexico, the Art Museum in Milwaukee being in NOT Milwaukee, etc. If he sees something he likes, I doubt he even gets as far as "what building is this" as opposed to "will I get good camera angles and will kilotons of exposives look cool here?"
So... just arrogance then? But at this point, I'm kind of beyond caring anything Bay-wise, inside or outside of the TF franchise to be angry anymore. As I said before, Bay as a producer of ROTB he was hands off enough to not interfere Caple Jr. too much it seems... and that's a credit to Bay. Let give TF a fresh start from BBM/ROTB on, for a better planned future. Stick to whatever elements you introduce and give the viewers consistency, followups and closure, not a thousand dropped plots & contradictions.
Posted by First-Aid on July 18th, 2023 @ 3:41pm CDT
cloudballoon wrote:First-Aid wrote:cloudballoon wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Not only that, but how Bay executed those ideas was flippin' nuts, too. The man didn't have to put Nazi banners on Winston Churchill's estate in order to film the WWII scene. He chose that location to put them on.
That's an "It's OK to sh*t on BOTH allies & enemy" kind of American militarism/faux-patriotism/ignorance. Zero sensitivity.
I doubt there was that much thought in it. My suspicion is he simply liked the look of it, the availability of his favorite camera angles, and wasn't even aware it was Churchill's estate. Probably saw a picture of the place that was presented by a staff member and said, "that one works". I think you're giving him too much credit and spewing hate in a direction where it probably isn't warranted because of ignorance. Think of his "Smithsonian" scenes going into the aircraft graveyard in New Mexico, the Art Museum in Milwaukee being in NOT Milwaukee, etc. If he sees something he likes, I doubt he even gets as far as "what building is this" as opposed to "will I get good camera angles and will kilotons of exposives look cool here?"
So... just arrogance then?
Ignorance disguised as "artistic intent".
Posted by Tyrannacon on July 18th, 2023 @ 4:00pm CDT
I'd also venture that the whole writing quality tanked due to both creative differences with Bay and them and the writer strike at that time for both RotF and DOTM.
I admit, my assertions are based solely on assumption and probably not what actually happened. To me, however, this is just what I thought transpired or why the sudden tonal shift and lack of care regarding story cohesion.
Posted by AcademyofDrX on July 18th, 2023 @ 4:13pm CDT
Tyrannacon wrote:I'd also venture that the whole writing quality tanked due to both creative differences with Bay and them and the writer strike at that time for both RotF and DOTM.
I admit, my assertions are based solely on assumption and probably not what actually happened. To me, however, this is just what I thought transpired or why the sudden tonal shift and lack of care regarding story cohesion.
The writer's strike taught the producers they could make almost a billion dollars practically without a script. Is it any wonder that none of the core movies have had good writing?
Posted by Tyrannacon on July 18th, 2023 @ 4:26pm CDT
AcademyofDrX wrote:Tyrannacon wrote:I'd also venture that the whole writing quality tanked due to both creative differences with Bay and them and the writer strike at that time for both RotF and DOTM.
I admit, my assertions are based solely on assumption and probably not what actually happened. To me, however, this is just what I thought transpired or why the sudden tonal shift and lack of care regarding story cohesion.
The writer's strike taught the producers they could make almost a billion dollars practically without a script. Is it any wonder that none of the core movies have had good writing?
Exactly, because it wasn't until after that when Bay just started pushing the series into any useless dreck that came to his mind while setting it all in the middle of the cacophony of lens flare and explosions. I mean it kinda already was there already, but at least there was some force there to reel his crap in until there wasn't.
That said, if there's evidence to show that I am wrong about all this, please share. I don't like making "tin-hat theories" without substantial evidence and all of this is one deduction after another based on what I've read from various places across the 'net, which can be not too reliable nowadays. Oh well, the shoe does fit, however.
Posted by Sabrblade on July 18th, 2023 @ 4:48pm CDT
Except, Orci and Kurtzman didn't write a single episode of TF: Prime. They instead were that show's producers, alongside Jeff Kline and Duane Capizzi.Tyrannacon wrote:Just want to point out that I believe, it's been said not directly but implied, that Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman probably departed from writing anything for the film series after RotF. Their ideas seemed to carry directly over to Transformers Prime, where I recalled reading in an interview with them, they were able to finally get to more connected storytelling. I really feel Bay is a lot of the reason they saw themselves out of the production as they knew he was more focused on lens flare and big explosions. It's sort of why RotF ended up so half-assed in the writing department because both Orci and Kurtzman got replaced due to the writer's strike at that time too. I feel like they used it as a convenient door to jump fully on board to work on Transformers Prime to put all of their ideas and notes to use in another area altogether since Bay was probably difficult to work with for them based on how uncreative he is with his approach.
Posted by Tyrannacon on July 18th, 2023 @ 6:13pm CDT
Posted by Sabrblade on July 18th, 2023 @ 6:38pm CDT
IIRC, the two of them oversaw the story of the five-part series opener (even if they didn't write it), but little else after that.Tyrannacon wrote:Yeah, I was wondering if they had any writing credits for the series despite being producers and just completely assumed they had played some part in the writing of episodes. I stand corrected, thanks for pointing that out I really appreciate it. Also, I do wonder how much influence they had on the show's direction and progression over the three seasons.
Posted by Sabrblade on July 25th, 2023 @ 12:49pm CDT
Posted by TulioDude on July 30th, 2023 @ 7:21pm CDT