Rise of the Beasts' Box Office Crashes in its Second Week-End and Might Make Less than Bumblebee

I expected this.

NO ONE did well at the box office this weekend. The Flash is a legitimate flat-out flop, worse than ROTB, and Elemental is even worse; looks like Pixar may be 'dead man walking' right now. But both DID detract and draw from the audience of ROTB.

This summer is going to be unique...the short transit time between theater and digital anymore as well as theater prices, which were already high, being affected by inflation is moving people away from theaters in general- especially for movies that they may be "on the fence" seeing. I'm in that group for Flash, honestly. I'm not seeing it in theater but I may see it once it hits streaming/DVD. ROTB I'm planning on seeing again this coming weekend because it was fun, but a lot of my friends- who also plan on repeating seeing it- chose to see FLash this weekend.

Is it time to move away from box office gross in order to truly measure a movie's success? Look at the success of "Mortal Kombat" and how it was released as the new standard?

Domestic Box Office for June 16 week-end

Flash 55M
Elemental 29.5M
Spider-verse 27.8M
ROTB 20M

International Box Office numbers for the same films for June 16 week-end

Flash 75M
ROTB 37.2M
Spider-verse 27.6M
Elemental 15M

These numbers are weak, no matter how you look at them. Each one of these films had hundreds of millions sunk into their writing, production, marketing, and distribution. For Flash and Elemental especially, they were supposed to come roaring out of the gate and rake in cash by the truckloads. And it obviously isn't happening. And don't tell us it's because everyone is saving up to see "Dial of Destiny" instead.

People can argue all kinds of things as to the reasoning. But ultimately, it all boils down to 3 things: content, content, content. If the entertainment industry was making good films that people wanted to see, then people would be going to see them regardless of any external factors short of a war or a natural disaster. Streaming and Covid did not make movie theaters irrelevant. The content of the films has made movie theaters irrelevant.

It's only week 2 with a crappy box office for everyone. But here's the kicker. I've read the plot and every single spoiler online. By just looking at article titles on yahoo. This turned me away from spending $50 at the theater for 2 people. I've seen every single transformers movie in theater but now theaters don't feel right. I'd rather sit in my chair and watch it. But since I know the entire plot in advance, I'll save the money and wait till it's free. Same with the flash. I love Keatons batman but I won't spend money since they didn't get Ezra in trouble

Cheetron wrote:It's only week 2 with a crappy box office for everyone. But here's the kicker. I've read the plot and every single spoiler online. By just looking at article titles on yahoo. This turned me away from spending $50 at the theater for 2 people. I've seen every single transformers movie in theater but now theaters don't feel right. I'd rather sit in my chair and watch it. But since I know the entire plot in advance, I'll save the money and wait till it's free. Same with the flash. I love Keatons batman but I won't spend money since they didn't get Ezra in trouble

Yup, pretty much. Why see it in the theater? By mid-July it will (allegedly) be on streaming already. Why bother seeing it in theaters?

As for content, I do agree to an extent. The content, in regards to this site specifically, has ALWAYS been questionable to a vocal group because it isn't G1 or isn't what they remember or wanted. So judging by reactions on this site specifically, you can't make any assumptions. The fact is that the movie is almost to $200 million globally; yes that's less than normal but can we really judge normal anymore? How do you define a box office hit? Are "tent-pole movies" a thing of the past? It will probably beat out Flash and will likely crush Elemental (everything Disney touches right now is failing with GOTG3 being the only exception). Indy will be a big test, but I think the FINAL test will be the new Mission: Impossible movie. Note that FF10 also is flopping; this is not a good summer movie season start financially.

DeathReviews wrote:These numbers are weak, no matter how you look at them. Each one of these films had hundreds of millions sunk into their writing, production, marketing, and distribution. For Flash and Elemental especially, they were supposed to come roaring out of the gate and rake in cash by the truckloads. And it obviously isn't happening. And don't tell us it's because everyone is saving up to see "Dial of Destiny" instead.

People can argue all kinds of things as to the reasoning. But ultimately, it all boils down to 3 things: content, content, content. If the entertainment industry was making good films that people wanted to see, then people would be going to see them regardless of any external factors short of a war or a natural disaster. Streaming and Covid did not make movie theaters irrelevant. The content of the films has made movie theaters irrelevant.

Bingo. Hollywood just keeps churning out their "representation" schlock "for modern audiences" and the audiences aren't playing along anymore. A lot of people are tired of seeing our favorite characters deconstructed to push an agenda. And Geriatric Jones and the Condescending Sidekick is expected to leave a crater when it drops. Top Gun Maverick, Spiderman No Way Home, and Super Mario Brothers prove that you give people what they want to see rather than what you want to force on them, they'll show up.

Does Father's Day weekend usually produce that big of a box office return in general?

Brokebot wrote:Bingo. Hollywood just keeps churning out their "representation" schlock "for modern audiences" and the audiences aren't playing along anymore. A lot of people are tired of seeing our favorite characters deconstructed to push an agenda. And Geriatric Jones and the Condescending Sidekick is expected to leave a crater when it drops. Top Gun Maverick, Spiderman No Way Home, and Super Mario Brothers prove that you give people what they want to see rather than what you want to force on them, they'll show up.

I've been a TF fan since the beginning and I've seen it all. What I haven't seen, but desperately want to, is a TF movie based on Lost Light. Show me a trailer with Ultra Magnus getting drunk in a bar and people jumping off a roof on him to force him to transform and my butt will be in a movie theater seat to see it. And I bet others would want to see, too.

First-Aid wrote:NO ONE did well at the box office this weekend. The Flash is a legitimate flat-out flop, worse than ROTB, and Elemental is even worse; looks like Pixar may be 'dead man walking' right now. But both DID detract and draw from the audience of ROTB.

This summer is going to be unique...the short transit time between theater and digital anymore as well as theater prices, which were already high, being affected by inflation is moving people away from theaters in general- especially for movies that they may be "on the fence" seeing. I'm in that group for Flash, honestly. I'm not seeing it in theater but I may see it once it hits streaming/DVD. ROTB I'm planning on seeing again this coming weekend because it was fun, but a lot of my friends- who also plan on repeating seeing it- chose to see FLash this weekend.

Is it time to move away from box office gross in order to truly measure a movie's success? Look at the success of "Mortal Kombat" and how it was released as the new standard?

You can't move away from the box office gross to define a success when every single other method has not resulted in making as much money. They tried having streaming replace the cineplex for high budget movies but had to fall back on that since it simply wasn't as profitable. So the plan right now is still to start with a cinema release and then fallback on streaming as added content for whatever platform. And that means that box office numbers still act as the main way to gauge success.

Also, while you say that all films did bad, yes that's true in general, and the flash just threw a wrench in the mix, hurting itself and the other films too.
BUT Spider-verse still did well. In its third week, it was just shy of beating a newly released animated film from Pixar, that's quite impressive.

Also, I chose to watch the flash (I've been to the the movies every week for the past 3 weeks) and I have to say, it was a great experience. I preferred it to Spiderverse and ROTB but thats because it hit a lot of notes that were very dear to me. It's also the one that my kids were the most invested in while watching.

DeathReviews wrote: And don't tell us it's because everyone is saving up to see "Dial of Destiny" instead.

Hahahaha, very funny. Though I am surprised to see that franchise escaped your grip, Death, I was sure it was a goner after the last one.

Brokebot wrote:Bingo. Hollywood just keeps churning out their "representation" schlock "for modern audiences" and the audiences aren't playing along anymore. A lot of people are tired of seeing our favorite characters deconstructed to push an agenda. And Geriatric Jones and the Condescending Sidekick is expected to leave a crater when it drops. Top Gun Maverick, Spiderman No Way Home, and Super Mario Brothers prove that you give people what they want to see rather than what you want to force on them, they'll show up.

Na, we have recent films that show the opposite can work just as well. Black Panther 2 had a female Black Panther and a race switch for Namor for latin american representation and it did very well.

And the biggest film right now is Spider-verse which is all about diversity (both the protagonist and antagonist are people of colour). Plus it has some very politically divissive messages, including a Protect Trans Kids message. That last bit had a lot of people claiming this film would go broke for being woke (like this article: https://citizengo.org/en-ca/fm/210776-s ... ider-verse) but the conversation and controversy has died down after the film was a huge box office success and didn't fit that go woke go broke narrative. Though it has come up again recently due to the film now being banned in UAE for that message: https://www.comingsoon.net/movies/news/ ... -man-movie

In the end, a film can be as woke as it wants to be and give as many messages as it wants to give as long as its popular and enjoyed by people.

First-Aid wrote:How do you define a box office hit?

Either nominal gross or budget multiplier, depending on the budget.

Note that FF10 also is flopping; this is not a good summer movie season start financially.

Final Fantasy 10 sold enough copies for the series to continue.




Just joking around

WiseMan wrote:

Brokebot wrote:Bingo. Hollywood just keeps churning out their "representation" schlock "for modern audiences" and the audiences aren't playing along anymore. A lot of people are tired of seeing our favorite characters deconstructed to push an agenda. And Geriatric Jones and the Condescending Sidekick is expected to leave a crater when it drops. Top Gun Maverick, Spiderman No Way Home, and Super Mario Brothers prove that you give people what they want to see rather than what you want to force on them, they'll show up.

I've been a TF fan since the beginning and I've seen it all. What I haven't seen, but desperately want to, is a TF movie based on Lost Light. Show me a trailer with Ultra Magnus getting drunk in a bar and people jumping off a roof on him to force him to transform and my butt will be in a movie theater seat to see it. And I bet others would want to see, too.

I don't think Brokebot would like anything based on the Lost Light since a big part of it deals with same gender relationships along with gender identity (in the last bit) and from what they've written, they could interpret that as pushing a message.

It still has yet to be released in a lot of countries but sure… let’s draw conclusions already.

It looks like Spider-verse still has strong legs due to it truly having the best word of mouth by both Critics and Audience.

It's no shock that these other lackluster films are falling flat on their faces at the box-office. It's only amazing that Hollywood is too stupid to grasp the reasons why less and less people are breaking their necks to buy tickets.

Paramount in this case gave more than half of the TF fandom the middle finger during the Bay days not realizing that regular moviegoers weren't as loyal as they thought and now here they are... 67% decline.

Hahahaha, very funny. Though I am surprised to see that franchise escaped your grip, Death, I was sure it was a goner after the last one.

Oh I reaped that one all right . But Hollywood treats some franchises like zombies. They keep them shambling around long AFTER they're obviously dead, moaning for brains to eat. Sad, really.

We have recent films that show the opposite can work just as well. Black Panther 2 had a female Black Panther and a race switch for Namor for latin american representation and it did very well...

I'm not sure about the box office numbers - but as a merchandising vehicle, Wakanda Forever seems to have been a dismal failure. It's been a year since it came out, but the only thing that seems 'forever' about it are the figures and toys which are still lying in unsold, unwanted heaps on store shelves. That's another sad sight, even for me.

And the biggest film right now is Spider-verse which is all about diversity (both the protagonist and antagonist are people of colour).

I wouldn't say that makes the film "all about diversity". Though, I've often wondered how these films would have done if they weren't riding on the original Spider-Man's coattails. I find multiverses, time travel, alternate realities and diverging timelines to be an ever-increasingly tiresome gimmick that writers use to inject artificial popularity into stories which would otherwise go unnoticed. Many of today's writers plainly admit, they're not even trying to make their own original stories anymore, they 'just want to see what (insert franchise name here) would be like IF (insert minor plot tweak here)...'

Plus it has some very politically divisive messages, including a Protect Trans Kids message. But the conversation and controversy has died down after the film was a huge box office success and didn't fit that go woke go broke narrative.

Could be - though I'd quantify that more as 'subliminal advertising'. They flashed the poster for maybe a split second and certainly didn't dwell on it. A message would have been if Gwen or Miles (or both) had danced around in front of the poster, winking, nodding, and saying, "Hey kids! Ask your doctor about this!" I'd say Spiderverse escaped (in some measure) because they weren't gauchely brazen about it. They didn't make it a selling point, unlike other movies such as Lightyear, Strange World, or even Elemental. If they keep it subtle, then most people can watch the show and enjoy it for what it is. But if they do something like Earthspark did, and throw a press conference to announce, 'We're using this show as part of a crusade to re-define what it means to be a family', then I groan and leave it unwatched.

Randomhero wrote:It still has yet to be released in a lot of countries but sure… let’s draw conclusions already.

What conclusion...?

Hollywood gets the most of it's return from the domestic box-office. This is fact! And at this rate it may not even reach $200M here in the states. Which isn't a good look. Sure international box-office will help but if you Google China box-office you'll see that Studios only get 25% of whatever that is if they're lucky.

So the only "Conclusion" that I've personally jumped on years ago was Hasbro finding someway to get all of their Movie rights back ASAP! Because Paramount trying to promote some lame crossover when they can't even get either IP right separately is not going to cut it!

I don't think Transformers is performing badly so much as being lost in the glut of mediocre summer films ( except Spider Verse which is shining). Which unfortunately has the same result.

In years past, even in a crowded summer, every film would usually have 2 weeks to dominate before the next big one came along. Flash and Elemental are not great films, but they both arrived in a week and stole much of RotB box office take. Fortunately it is still doing well internationally,but it could be seen as a financial failure due to budget despite good word of mouth.

Randomhero wrote:It still has yet to be released in a lot of countries but sure… let’s draw conclusions already.

The only markets remaining are Australia/New Zealand (this week) and Japan (August 4), so while I do agree with you saying it's a bit too soon, I can't see the Japanese market making a major impact.

o.supreme wrote:I don't think Transformers is performing badly so much as being lost in the glut of mediocre summer films ( except Spider Verse which is shining). Which unfortunately has the same result.

In years past, even in a crowded summer, every film would usually have 2 weeks to dominate before the next big one came along. Flash and Elemental are not great films, but they both arrived in a week and stole much of RotB box office take. Fortunately it is still doing well internationally,but it could be seen as a financial failure due to budget despite good word of mouth.

Yeah, this is the ACTUAL lesson the studios should be taking. RotB isn't doing mediocre because of poor quality or because it went "woke" (that is provable nonsense based on what's beating it at the box office), it's because they released it in-between 3 other "blockbuster" movie releases in a narrow 3 week timeframe.

This is the same reason Bumblebee sunk, when they decided to release it between the first Spiderverse movie, Aquaman and Mary Poppins. Literally, THEY MADE THE EXACT SAME MISTAKE, and released a Transformers movie against Spider-Man, DC and Disney. Paramount is terrible at timing.

william-james88 wrote:I don't think Brokebot would like anything based on the Lost Light since a big part of it deals with same gender relationships along with gender identity (in the last bit) and from what they've written, they could interpret that as pushing a message.

I'm entering the angry-old-man stage. Tomorrow I'm going shopping for a lawn chair so I can yell at neighborhood kids to stay off my lawn and and gripe about "that noise they call music now-a-days."

Kinda surprising just how lackluster the box office this weekend was in general.

I'm on the boat that agrees on how releasing the film alongside three other big names in the film industry probably wasn't the smartest move. Even if most of the comments I see online about Elemental or Flash (which, of course, is not the most reliable of sources) are all about how both films aren't that interesting or good or whatever, I'm sure a lot of people still went to see 'em anyway. Maybe they enjoyed it, maybe they wanted to see how it'll be, maybe they wanted to watch it with friends/family, maybe they had a day off, or hell, maybe they just wanted to "see how bad it is." It still means a ticket sold to that movie and away from RotB's profit.

...Next time don't do Wheeljack dirty

If it fails I'll completely understand why, but I think this film has legs, there's just a lot of films people want to see. People who saw Flash (Ah, ah) this week might go see ROTB next.

How much control does Paramount have to booking Premiere weekend that doesn't bumping into another Blockbuster/Tentpole movie nowadays, especially during the summer/holiday season? Seems like we get a Big Franchise(tm) movieor two every month anyway, shared between Marvels/DC/Jurassic Park/Fast/John Wick/Cruise/Disney-Pixar/Dreamworks/Etc. and the like. There's always stiff competition between either big movies or against reduces movie-going crowd during the slow months.

What's so hard to grasp the concept of making a good movie first?

I think Caple Jr. made a fine TF movie in ROTB. But it suffered from name recognition (vs. Bay) and also general non-TF diehard audience fatigue, it's also not helped by the "professional critics" either. These are not the movie's quality or director's fault, but one thing it could've done is get some Star Power for its leads. Ramos & Fishback are too unknown... not faulting them personally, I don't care and I actually think they're fine, charming even, but I do honestly think it's a factor for the general audience.

Personally, I don't think I care if a TF movie cut the CGI production budget by half if the plot & acting (human AND voice actors for the bots) are great. Bumblebee was a Great TF live-aciton movie (at least #2 for me, if not #1 because of my nostalgia for '07) and doesn't cost as much as ROTB. IIRC, Bay was boasting about OP having 10 thousand moving parts in its CGI.... which I immediately thought was stupid (and a f'ing headache for Hasbro), we don't need that kind of waste. BBM & ROTB used the CGI budget much smarter I think.

cloudballoon wrote:How much control does Paramount have to booking Premiere weekend that doesn't bumping into another Blockbuster/Tentpole movie nowadays, especially during the summer/holiday season? Seems like we get a Big Franchise(tm) movieor two every month anyway, shared between Marvels/DC/Jurassic Park/Fast/John Wick/Cruise/Disney-Pixar/Dreamworks/Etc. and the like. There's always stiff competition between either big movies or against reduces movie-going crowd during the slow months.

What's so hard to grasp the concept of making a good movie first?

I think Caple Jr. made a fine TF movie in ROTB. But it suffered from name recognition (vs. Bay) and also general non-TF diehard audience fatigue, it's also not helped by the "professional critics" either. These are not the movie's quality or director's fault, but one thing it could've done is get some Star Power for its leads. Ramos & Fishback are too unknown... not faulting them personally, I don't care and I actually think they're fine, charming even, but I do honestly think it's a factor for the general audience.

Personally, I don't think I care if a TF movie cut the CGI production budget by half if the plot & acting (human AND voice actors for the bots) are great. Bumblebee was a Great TF live-aciton movie (at least #2 for me, if not #1 because of my nostalgia for '07) and doesn't cost as much as ROTB. IIRC, Bay was boasting about OP having 10 thousand moving parts in its CGI.... which I immediately thought was stupid (and a f'ing headache for Hasbro), we don't need that kind of waste. BBM & ROTB used the CGI budget much smarter I think.

Yes, BBM and ROTB did use the CGI more wisely (BBM especially). One thing though, as mentionned by Caple, the CGI costs the same regardless of what the robot is doing. Cutting the CGI budget in half means you cut out the robots by half, so you end up with them as props like in the Bay films, and have the humans take up the screen time.

william-james88 wrote:Yes, BBM and ROTB did use the CGI more wisely (BBM especially). One thing though, as mentionned by Caple, the CGI costs the same regardless of what the robot is doing. Cutting the CGI budget in half means you cut out the robots by half, so you end up with them as props like in the Bay films, and have the humans take up the screen time.

Might not be that "more budget = more bots" clear cut I think. Remember the BBM Cybertron scene got quite a few bots to create. I think savings can be achieved by making bots having less useless moving parts, making bots simpler (no wild 6-8 limbs, etc. that can't be mo-cap) to create should also make CGI easier/less time consuming to render to achieve budget savings, which imo doesn't affect the movie's quality much, if at all.

Also, seems like ROTB got some unnecessary budget inflation due to more script indecisions than usual, judging from people describe the diff between the test screens to the final cut. That I'll chalk up on the struggle Caple got on his hands to fight the stupid producer(s) causing on rewrites to walk the fine line between the eternal "reboot yes or no" problem.

SkyFire Prime wrote:...Next time don't do Wheeljack dirty

Or hire a director whose #1 priority is the subject matter.

the film was medicore at best.

the human characters were annoying as could they be and any negative human was surprise surprise white person...what a shocker that was in modern cinema (yawn).

The Maximals were next to pointless and the end fight by rights should've been Optimus Primals.

Transformers that don't transform why bother having them in the movie..i'm looking at you Airazor.

Mirage being an everything former is just lazy. tranformers characters used to have specific functions limiting their alt modes but no now they can be anything whenever they want without any consquences but never mind we need a truck now.

Mirage and Bumblebee 'deaths' were completely pointless and lost any meaning by just bringing them back.

Stratosphere was literally a plot device nothing more. the autobots they literal left their big gun babysitting a 'dead' body.

Rhinox and Cheetor didn't need to be in the movie as they literally brought nothing to it.

If this is all same the same continuity then i'm literally lost.

Another thing to consider is the "plausible deniability" factor. If you have a movie that the analytics say isn't going to make it's money back, regardless of release date, you can cram it between other big name releases and blame the other movies for its failure rather than it be obvious that it failed on its own merits, or lack thereof. Then drop it on digital as soon as possible in the hopes it'll pick up some cash in the home market before any bad word of mouth tanks it fully.

Remember, a movie never fails because they made a movie few people wanted to see. It fails because we fans are too stupid to appreciate their artistic vision or the stars were out of alignment their dog had covid or some other nonsense.

Brokebot wrote:Remember, a movie never fails because they made a movie few people wanted to see. It fails because we fans are too stupid to appreciate their artistic vision or the stars were out of alignment their dog had covid or some other nonsense.

I expect the director to blame some "isms" if the movie doesn't do well enough.

-Kanrabat- wrote:

Brokebot wrote:Remember, a movie never fails because they made a movie few people wanted to see. It fails because we fans are too stupid to appreciate their artistic vision or the stars were out of alignment their dog had covid or some other nonsense.

I expect the director to blame some "isms" if the movie doesn't do well enough.

you can almost guarantee it nowadays

Like I said, ROTB is fine... middle of the road in terms of live-action TF movies. Never expected a TF movie (or DC/Marvel or any franchise for that matter) to be masterpieces.

What I expect is some sensical bot fight choreographies & cool transformations, and it delivers more than most. You know, a reason to turn off the brain, enjoy some popcorn and a sense of fun. Million plots holes can be damned in a summber blockbuster movie for me.

Many of these summer movies are no longer fun. They're still spectacles, yes, but not fun.

The worse part of ROTB is the (again) human characters. This time is for different reasons than the Bay films. I'm not anti-woke, but what some people called "woke" issues - whatever that is - need to be addressed sensibly, if warranted in a plot. I can't see why or how that's needed in a TF movie though. When you "checkmark" representation/"woke" issues and not doing a justifiably good job about it, then that's just terrible, as it opens the movie to needless criticisms and lost sales as a certain set of society just love to boycott these movies. It's too bad I like Ramos & Fishback enough (much better than Bay selling sexploitisms & over-the-top toilet "humors") but their characters are not great in ROTB.

cloudballoon wrote:Like I said, ROTB is fine... middle of the road in terms of live-action TF movies. Never expected a TF movie (or DC/Marvel or any franchise for that matter) to be masterpieces.

What I expect is some sensical bot fight choreographies & cool transformations, and it delivers more than most. You know, a reason to turn off the brain, enjoy some popcorn and a sense of fun. Million plots holes can be damned in a summber blockbuster movie for me.

Many of these summer movies are no longer fun. They're still spectacles, yes, but not fun.

The worse part of ROTB is the (again) human characters. This time is for different reasons than the Bay films. I'm not anti-woke, but what some people called "woke" issues - whatever that is - need to be addressed sensibly, if warranted in a plot. I can't see why or how that's needed in a TF movie though. When you "checkmark" representation/"woke" issues and not doing a justifiably good job about it, then that's just terrible, as it opens the movie to needless criticisms and lost sales as a certain set of society just love to boycott these movies. It's too bad I like Ramos & Fishback enough (much better than Bay selling sexploitisms & over-the-top toilet "humors") but their characters are not great in ROTB.

The story has to come first. All other considerations are secondary. Take Star Trek for example. Back in the 60's, ST:TOS would have been considered woke as hell, but because of the heavy censorship they had to deal with, they had to weave their message into a compelling story that Ma and PA Middle-America could watch with the kids without freaking out. To this day, those shows are still watchable and far more compelling than the ham-fisted nonsense they're putting out now.

Except maybe the third season of Picard. That was on point.

D-Maximal_Primal wrote:Kinda surprising just how lackluster the box office this weekend was in general.

Father's Day has traditionally been a mediocre weekend. Dads are too busy grilling.

ANyone else find it interesting that everyone takes Mom out for dinner/brunch on Mother's day, but Dads end up cooking on the grill on Father's Day?

I wonder if there will be a pick-up this weekend. The Audience scores are still really good and the scores for the Flash are not. The Flash has an audience score of 51%, which is pathetic. ROTB is still at 91%. I think ROTB will have better staying power than the Flash too.

Brokebot wrote:The story has to come first. All other considerations are secondary. Take Star Trek for example. Back in the 60's, ST:TOS would have been considered woke as hell, but because of the heavy censorship they had to deal with, they had to weave their message into a compelling story that Ma and PA Middle-America could watch with the kids without freaking out. To this day, those shows are still watchable and far more compelling than the ham-fisted nonsense they're putting out now.

Except maybe the third season of Picard. That was on point.

Star Trek might get an easier pass - even in the 60's - on social/cultural issues because it's Sci-Fi that's distance in the future. It doesn't feel like it "hit home" as close as the current TF/DC/Marvel that's depicting a "today" society (or 1994 in ROTB).

There are too many people - on both the left & right - that are snowflakes, they actively go out of their way to ruin things for the vast middle.

Appeasement culture is running too rampant in Hollywood. Both full-on "woke" or "anti-woke" are bad if done in detriment to the story. But what's worst is producers paying exorbitant millions for dumb CGI & star actors (that's not really worth their salt) instead of paying mere decent money for good writers. That's a big factor why many, many movies are no fun any more.

Back to TF/ROTB. I don't know why, but producers/directors seeems to love to bite more than they could chew in introducing TF lore in their movies, except '07 & BBM imo. ROTB is a "Mid" movie, and it's brought down to that level because of this primary sin.

Coptur wrote:the human characters were annoying as could they be and any negative human was surprise surprise white person...

Right, because Bay never had any unlikable white human characters in his mov--OH WAIT, the majority of his white human characters were insufferable.

Coptur wrote:Mirage being an everything former is just lazy. tranformers characters used to have specific functions limiting their alt modes but no now they can be anything whenever they want without any consquences but never mind we need a truck now.

It was his holographic illusion technology. He used his hologram tech to give himself the appearance of other vehicle modes. It's why he kept reverting back to his normal Porche altmode instead of treating any of the other vehicles he mimicked as his new default altmode.

Randomhero wrote:It still has yet to be released in a lot of countries but sure… let’s draw conclusions already.

I don't know who you're talking to in that, but I simply reported what was being predicted at the moment given the film's trajectory.

We can't draw conclusions for sure, but it's not because of it not being released in Japan and Australia yet. The only way for this film to succeed is if it does well in the US or China (and preferably the US since Paramount doesn't make much from Chinese box office). The Japanese and Oceanic markets have never been enough to support a US made film.

I'm genuinely surprised people are still complaining that RotB was too 'woke' or that the director was pushing some evil agenda. We've seen it now, and and aside from the protagonists being nonwhite, was there anything particularly progressive about it? I don't really keep up with alright stuff, but do people consider the inclusion of non-vehicle Maximals as 'too diverse' for their liking...?

Regarding the box office, these really are strange times. I can certainly understand it; there have been several films recently I was excited to see, but knowing they were all coming to streaming quite soon I opted to just wait for that. The only films I'll make much effort to see on a big screen now are horrors (since they really just have a different vibe when watched in a dark theatre) or movies that look like they'll have incredible cinematography. I'm a little curious to learn how much streaming deals impact the bottom line for these kinda movies, since it's increasingly seeming like box office doesn't give the whole picture.

I just hope RotB does well enough that we keep getting transformers movies. I've only really liked 3 of them, but I love me that movie aesthetic for the figures.

Cheesinator wrote:I'm genuinely surprised people are still complaining that RotB was too 'woke' or that the director was pushing some evil agenda. We've seen it now, and and aside from the protagonists being nonwhite, was there anything particularly progressive about it? I don't really keep up with alright stuff, but do people consider the inclusion of non-vehicle Maximals as 'too diverse' for their liking...?

Regarding the box office, these really are strange times. I can certainly understand it; there have been several films recently I was excited to see, but knowing they were all coming to streaming quite soon I opted to just wait for that. The only films I'll make much effort to see on a big screen now are horrors (since they really just have a different vibe when watched in a dark theatre) or movies that look like they'll have incredible cinematography. I'm a little curious to learn how much streaming deals impact the bottom line for these kinda movies, since it's increasingly seeming like box office doesn't give the whole picture.

I just hope RotB does well enough that we keep getting transformers movies. I've only really liked 3 of them, but I love me that movie aesthetic for the figures.

I thought it was interesting how, whether intentional or not, they threw mild shade at the people complaining about the Twins in ROTF being racist when Wheeljack accused Noah of being racist and Noah kind of mumbled "It's a robot...how can it be racist?" (or something to that effect)

First-Aid wrote:I thought it was interesting how, whether intentional or not, they threw mild shade at the people complaining about the Twins in ROTF being racist when Wheeljack accused Noah of being racist and Noah kind of mumbled "It's a robot...how can it be racist?" (or something to that effect)

The way I remember the scene, Noah hears Wheeljack speak, asks him about his accent, Wheejack's like "What accent?", Noah's like "Oh, I was gonna say (something in Spanish) but my bad, man." Then Wheeljack's like "That's, uh, kinda racist if you're just assuming based on how my voice sounds." Then Noah mutters to himself and Elena, "He's a giant alien robot, how is that racist?" I'm paraphrasing, of course.

Sabrblade wrote:

First-Aid wrote:I thought it was interesting how, whether intentional or not, they threw mild shade at the people complaining about the Twins in ROTF being racist when Wheeljack accused Noah of being racist and Noah kind of mumbled "It's a robot...how can it be racist?" (or something to that effect)

The way I remember the scene, Noah hears Wheeljack speak, asks him about his accent, Wheejack's like "What accent?", Noah's like "Oh, I was gonna say (something in Spanish) but my bad, man." Then Wheeljack's like "That's, uh, kinda racist if you're just assuming based on how my voice sounds." Then Noah mutters to himself and Elena, "He's a giant alien robot, how is that racist?" I'm paraphrasing, of course.

I think you're right. Still, makes a point and is funny.

First-Aid wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

First-Aid wrote:I thought it was interesting how, whether intentional or not, they threw mild shade at the people complaining about the Twins in ROTF being racist when Wheeljack accused Noah of being racist and Noah kind of mumbled "It's a robot...how can it be racist?" (or something to that effect)

The way I remember the scene, Noah hears Wheeljack speak, asks him about his accent, Wheejack's like "What accent?", Noah's like "Oh, I was gonna say (something in Spanish) but my bad, man." Then Wheeljack's like "That's, uh, kinda racist if you're just assuming based on how my voice sounds." Then Noah mutters to himself and Elena, "He's a giant alien robot, how is that racist?" I'm paraphrasing, of course.

I think you're right. Still, makes a point and is funny.

The irony being that the scene was all about Wheeljack's voice, when it's his design that people have been accusing of looking (to put it politely) "too ethnic".

Sabrblade wrote:

First-Aid wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

First-Aid wrote:I thought it was interesting how, whether intentional or not, they threw mild shade at the people complaining about the Twins in ROTF being racist when Wheeljack accused Noah of being racist and Noah kind of mumbled "It's a robot...how can it be racist?" (or something to that effect)

The way I remember the scene, Noah hears Wheeljack speak, asks him about his accent, Wheejack's like "What accent?", Noah's like "Oh, I was gonna say (something in Spanish) but my bad, man." Then Wheeljack's like "That's, uh, kinda racist if you're just assuming based on how my voice sounds." Then Noah mutters to himself and Elena, "He's a giant alien robot, how is that racist?" I'm paraphrasing, of course.

I think you're right. Still, makes a point and is funny.

The irony being that the scene was all about Wheeljack's voice, when it's his design that people have been accusing of looking (to put it politely) "too ethnic".

Never thought of that. Good point. I tend to look at people as organs, skin, and cells because I've been in healthcare for 27 years and ignore skin unless there is a rash, laceration, or wound. I blew right by that I guess.

First-Aid wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

First-Aid wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

First-Aid wrote:I thought it was interesting how, whether intentional or not, they threw mild shade at the people complaining about the Twins in ROTF being racist when Wheeljack accused Noah of being racist and Noah kind of mumbled "It's a robot...how can it be racist?" (or something to that effect)

The way I remember the scene, Noah hears Wheeljack speak, asks him about his accent, Wheejack's like "What accent?", Noah's like "Oh, I was gonna say (something in Spanish) but my bad, man." Then Wheeljack's like "That's, uh, kinda racist if you're just assuming based on how my voice sounds." Then Noah mutters to himself and Elena, "He's a giant alien robot, how is that racist?" I'm paraphrasing, of course.

I think you're right. Still, makes a point and is funny.

The irony being that the scene was all about Wheeljack's voice, when it's his design that people have been accusing of looking (to put it politely) "too ethnic".

Never thought of that. Good point. I tend to look at people as organs, skin, and cells because I've been in healthcare for 27 years and ignore skin unless there is a rash, laceration, or wound. I blew right by that I guess.

Yeah, as soon as his design was first unveiled, a whole lotta Urkel comparisons sprung up.

YoungPrime wrote:

Randomhero wrote:It still has yet to be released in a lot of countries but sure… let’s draw conclusions already.

What conclusion...?

Hollywood gets the most of it's return from the domestic box-office. This is fact! And at this rate it may not even reach $200M here in the states. Which isn't a good look. Sure international box-office will help but if you Google China box-office you'll see that Studios only get 25% of whatever that is if they're lucky.

So the only "Conclusion" that I've personally jumped on years ago was Hasbro finding someway to get all of their Movie rights back ASAP! Because Paramount trying to promote some lame crossover when they can't even get either IP right separately is not going to cut it!

Age of Extinction was considered a huge hit making 1.1B at the box office, of which 245M was domestic, 301M was China, with the other roughly 550M being the rest of the world. These movies have been more popular abroad for a long time. If you look at the box office trend film to film, the domestic box office has steadily declined, with the international box office growing with each instalment. Finally The Last Knight basically bombed domestically, but did well abroad, though not as well as the last couple films. People domestically having been losing interest in these movies with each film.

Mistakes that I think were made with this film (which I actually rather liked);

1) poor marketing. No one I talk to IRL knows this movie exists, even people who casually like Transformers or Beast Wars.

2) Not making it a hardline reboot. The vague plot and stylistic connections to the Bay films hurt this movie, in my opinion. Completely start over with a new design aesthetic for the characters, with a full story reboot that focuses on characters people know. Classic Autobots like Prime, Ironhide, Wheeljack, BumbleBee, Cliffjumper, etc.

3) The GI Joe crossover tease, while cool, is a bit dubious since those films have never been terrible successful to begin with. Are we going to bring back Channing Tatum as Duke or The Rock as Roadblock and just hope people remember they were in GI Joe movies that barely anyone watch over a decade ago? Both of these franchises should have been rebooted with new directions and, if people respond well, then cross them over. This whole thing with taking about a new trilogy and crossover films feels Dark Universe-ish in putting the cart before the horse.

Sabrblade wrote:

First-Aid wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

First-Aid wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

First-Aid wrote:I thought it was interesting how, whether intentional or not, they threw mild shade at the people complaining about the Twins in ROTF being racist when Wheeljack accused Noah of being racist and Noah kind of mumbled "It's a robot...how can it be racist?" (or something to that effect)

The way I remember the scene, Noah hears Wheeljack speak, asks him about his accent, Wheejack's like "What accent?", Noah's like "Oh, I was gonna say (something in Spanish) but my bad, man." Then Wheeljack's like "That's, uh, kinda racist if you're just assuming based on how my voice sounds." Then Noah mutters to himself and Elena, "He's a giant alien robot, how is that racist?" I'm paraphrasing, of course.

I think you're right. Still, makes a point and is funny.

The irony being that the scene was all about Wheeljack's voice, when it's his design that people have been accusing of looking (to put it politely) "too ethnic".

Never thought of that. Good point. I tend to look at people as organs, skin, and cells because I've been in healthcare for 27 years and ignore skin unless there is a rash, laceration, or wound. I blew right by that I guess.

Yeah, as soon as his design was first unveiled, a whole lotta Urkel comparisons sprung up.

O...I gotcha. THAT I understand. Don't knock it though. Steve Urkel was the shiznit.

Sabrblade wrote:

Coptur wrote:the human characters were annoying as could they be and any negative human was surprise surprise white person...

Right, because Bay never had any unlikable white human characters in his mov--OH WAIT, the majority of his white human characters were insufferable.

Coptur wrote:Mirage being an everything former is just lazy. tranformers characters used to have specific functions limiting their alt modes but no now they can be anything whenever they want without any consquences but never mind we need a truck now.

It was his holographic illusion technology. He used his hologram tech to give himself the appearance of other vehicle modes. It's why he kept reverting back to his normal Porche altmode instead of treating any of the other vehicles he mimicked as his new default altmode.

Now I know you are being deliberately obtuse.

Yes there are annoy white characters in the bay movies well done round of applause to you but there are also annoying other race characters.

All the white characters were deliberately put into conflict with non white characters in this movie you'd had to be an idiot not to have noticed it, especially give the modern cinema and TV shows.
The nurse, the security boss and the museum boss. Even the gijoe guy was a smarmy sod.

Maybe/possible but why show the transformation? And Noah was seen climbing out of the truck not phasing out of Mirage seeing as the holograms weren't hardlight projections as we could see this in the chase scene that and mirages new plot device ability to turn into an eco suit.

Coptur wrote:The nurse, the security boss and the museum boss. Even the gijoe guy was a smarmy sod.

Haha, so you see a woman in a hospital setting and can only imagine her being a nurse, WOW

Cheesinator wrote:I'm genuinely surprised people are still complaining that RotB was too 'woke' or that the director was pushing some evil agenda.

It comes primarily from his comments about how he was going to use the movie to highlight black/Latino culture when that's not what people want in a movie about giant alien robots. Not so much "woke" as it is misplaced priorities.

Brokebot wrote:

Cheesinator wrote:I'm genuinely surprised people are still complaining that RotB was too 'woke' or that the director was pushing some evil agenda.

It comes primarily from his comments about how he was going to use the movie to highlight black/Latino culture

And after seeing the movie, there really wasn't much of that in the movie anyway.