Optimus Prime's Sword -Transformers: The Last Knight - MAN AT ARMS

EvasionModeBumblebee wrote:

WreckerJack wrote:

EvasionModeBumblebee wrote:Hey guys, I've been staying off the web for the most part to keep away from spoilers for TLK, but I saw this and figured you might want to see it!

https://youtu.be/vef62MzS6as

The spoiler thread is here my friend - spoiler-thread-for-transformers-the-last-knight-review-with-spoilers-added-6-20--t109402.php

Oh, it's not spoilers, its a video of the Man at Arms people forging Prime's sword from AOE/TLK

Ironically I just found that on youtube and newsed it. I didn't click your link because I didn't wish to be too spoiled. Great minds think alike

Seibertron wrote:

philswitch engage wrote:I hope you realize, Ryan, that this compromises any objectivity this site has in regards to the movies and your opinions of them

LOL! Nah, it doesn't change my opinion at all, nor does it compromise my opinion (nor has anything else that I've been treated to over the past 17 years of running Seibertron.com). At the end of the day, The Last Knight is another installment in the Michael Bay franchise. It still retains most of the same pros and cons that the previous 4 films had so if you're expecting anything radically different, you're probably going to be really disappointed.

Here're my quick thoughts of The Last Knight:

Pros: I liked that the story seemed much more coherent than previous films. It was a much more linear story line that was easier to follow that the films that intertwined multiple stories into one. The special effects looked amazing. I was thrilled at how much screen time the Transformers had. I liked that most of the transformations didn't cheat by happening off screen or behind something. I thought the acting was fairly decent minus a few moments. The absence of sexual humor minus a couple of scenes that I thought were rather funny and would be over my 8 year old daughter's understanding ...

Will write more later ...

And here's the later part. Trying to do work stuff today amidst getting ready to take my whole family and some friends to go see it again tonight, which will be my 3rd time. This time around, we'll be seeing it in 2D, which brings me to my cons.

Pros (continued): The musical score is fantastic, yet again. I have absolutely loved Steve Jablonsky's scores from all 5 movies. Due to his contributions, I have really gotten into movie scores, but absolutely love his work on Transformers. Very talented. Very appropriate music. It's right up my alley for mood setting in a film, and I don't think his scores have garnered enough appreciation. I liked that Bumblebee was (more-or-less) back to his old look, I liked Quintessa, I actually really liked the big "reveal" of the film, I loved Anthony Hopkins (one of my favorite actors) in this film (despite some of my cons with him regarding the script). I really liked Cogman, which I did a complete 180 on since he was initially revealed (if only all of the Transformers were handled in this manner with as much screentime). I liked Megatron and I even liked the "new" Decepticons for the most part. Hound continues to kick ass and be a personal favorite of mine, though I still wish he had been called Bulkhead. I was really impressed with Izabella and Jerrod Carmichael's characters. Carmichael was much better than TJ Miller (who I actually really like in other media such as HBO's Silicon Valley, but didn't care for in AOE). I liked all of the nods to the previous films (though a bit frustrated at some of the retconning). I loved seeing John Turtorro back, though I think the movie could have been rewritten to eliminate his role altogether. I still enjoyed his scenes and liked seeing him with Topspin (small spoiler, sorry!). I also really liked King Arthur and Merlin, and had no idea that Stanley Tucci from AOE played Merlin ... he's a great actor, despite the 2nd half of his performance in AOE (which has more to do with script or directing).

Cons: 3D, but that's not a problem with this movie in particular, just me with 3D in general. More on that below. Too many characters, particularly on the human side, but I'd even argue that there are too many Transformers fighting for screen time as well. Lack of characterization, outside of Cogman. Again, they don't seem to know what to do with the Decepticons, which is really unfortunate. I could do without all of the swearing. Sometimes, it's funny or really appropriate, but it seemed too much. Sir Anthony Hopkins (with an emphasis on the word Sir), probably doesn't go around saying "bitchin'" or the other swear words he said. It strikes me as really out of character for him and for the character he is playing. Not a fan of the Transformers swearing. For a awe-shocking moment, sure, such as Ultra Magnus saying "dammit" in 1986 movie and Bumblebee's one line during the junkyard scene (no spoiler please). The incomplete love story seems odd. I could totally do with an actual real love story happening inbetween the Transformers battles, but it seems more tacked on than anything. While the story was more comprehensive and linear, it still was just too much going on. Instead of real substance, we get more stuff happening to fill in the time. I don't get the purpose of the Transformers are always having been here and having influenced or been a part of so many historical moments. The non-stop action once they get off the submarine, was a bit much. I wish there had been something in there to break up the last third of the movie which was a non-stop onslaught of action, mostly good, but without any breaks to give your eyes and ears a rest.

Due to feelings of disorientation and that wearing the glasses disallows me to get fully sucked into a movie, I'm just not a fan of 3D. I'll never understand why they didn't do 3D screens instead of 3D glasses. There's got to be a reason that you do it with glasses instead, maybe it's a perspective thing or something, I don't know. But after forcing myself to try to enjoy the 3D experience ever since Avatar, I just can't do it anymore. I gave Michael Bay the benefit of the doubt after he assured us in person back in March in his office that the reason for the "uncomfortable" (my word, not his) feelings you get watching 3D is because it wasn't on IMAX or because the bulbs weren't right, or something along those lines. Since I was one of the lucky few who got to see the actual US premiere on an IMAX screen, I'm assuming that would be how they want us all to see it and I actually preferred the RealD 3D showing at the press screening, but I also had one of the best seats in the house (by sheer luck) because I was eye level with the middle of the screen, and we were in one of those awesome 21+ (you can drink a beer) fancy lazy boy electronic reclining seat experiences, which might be the next best thing to watching a movie at home (or it might even be better, depending on your objectives).

I'm sure I have more thoughts to share, both good and bad, but I've got to jet for now. As I said above, at the end of the day, it's another Michael Bay movie. I've seen more of his movies than any other director, love them or hate them. I like his style, I like his vision, it just seems like there's no one higher than him saying "hey man, you've got to rein this in a bit".

Sometimes, less is better. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do it.

Where do I rank TLK with the others? I really liked DOTM, so it's more or less a toss up with that one, with the first movie being my favorite. For the time being, I'm ranking TLK as #2 behind the first, but it might be #3 once all of the hype has died down and I've had some real time to process all of this. So in order: #1 TF2007, #2 TLK, #3 DOTM, #4 ROTF, and #5 AOE (yet all of them had things I really liked and didn't like).

Compromised? I don't think so.

Hm ... should I have put my review in a different topic? I didn't mean it to turn into my review, but it seems like it started to happen that way.

Seibertron wrote:Hm ... should I have put my review in a different topic? I didn't mean it to turn into my review, but it seems like it started to happen that way.

Well, we do have the review thread, which include spoilers, even though your posts didn't:
spoiler-thread-for-transformers-the-last-knight-review-with-spoilers-added-6-20--t109402.php

And personally, I feel bad for you not being able to enjoy 3D, this TF film in particular looked amazing in that format.

Love that sword! I think i seen they'd done other pop culture weapons like my fave sword ever The Sword of Omens from the original ThunderCats. Again things I would buy if I won the lottery

Went to see TF:TLK last night.

Sigh. When will this garbage stop?

Given that this franchise is over thirty years old, has had a unified "bible" or continuum in place for some time and has a trove of interesting/diverse/appealing characters to choose from ...

WHY is this junk stil lurching into theatres? Like its predecessors, this movie is shallow, vapid, mindless and far beneath the kind of treatment it deserves.

The film suffers from the same issues as all the rest: a ridiculous premise, infantile dialogue, zero emotional weight and the under-utilization of all the elements listed above. Don't get me wrong - the explosions and over-the-top Bayhem is fine with me. But when it's not pinned to any kind of substantive story, the end result isn't dissimilar to throwing a bunch of sh*t against the wall and hoping something sticks.

We were told that the collaborative "writers room" would lend a new cohesion and/or gravitas to TF: TLK. The best I could say is that they managed to make this thing only slightly less off-putting than the third film.

In my opinion, the best iteration of TF ever was TF: Prime. This was the series I had been waiting for. It struck the perfect balance among all of the elements that make Transformers work: well-paced, cohesive stories; character development, a strong voice cast, amazing visuals and the proper mix of action, adventure and emotional pull. The humans were placed well, too. Story arcs made sense and wrapped up pretty neatly with only a few bumps. No surpise, then, that it was nominated and won several Emmys.

Just imagine the quality of TF: Prime attached to a Bay-sized budget. Think about what that might produce.

If handled properly, Transformers has the potential to reach Star Wars levels of mythic greatness. It's a tremendous vehicle for storytelling and action/adventure in spades.

When will Hasbro get this?

When will we get something better?

I will say this is the first time my eyes felt tired while watching a Transformers movie in theaters but I did wake up early that day with not much sleep (6 hours).

I also felt dizzy and felt like falling over after it was all over and had to stand but that happens with every movie I've watched in theaters for the past 3-4 years so nothing new there.

77Prime84 wrote:When will Hasbro get this?

Hasbro gets it (or at least the Transformers brand team definitely does), or else we wouldn't have Transformers Prime, Transformers Animated, or other examples (though I might argue that some of the greatest Transformers stories of all time are stories where they had outside help such as the G1 cartoons and comics and Beast Wars, though not all of it, which bears some resemblance to how things were initially setup with Paramount). The movies and their stories are out of their hands if I understand everything correctly. I'm assuming that it's similar to Marvel with FOX. Hasbro handed over most of their rights for control of the Transformers films (if I'm wording this incorrectly, someone please advise immediately) over to Paramount and Michael Bay waaaay back in 2001/2002 when these deals were originally made.

But I assure you, Hasbro (or at least the brand team) gets it! Promise!!!

This is the manliest manly Transformers video EVER. It's WICKED.

Is someone gonna throw Money at Mike Cthulhu to make the Beast Hunters Prime meat cleaver Sword now then ?

77Prime84 wrote:
In my opinion, the best iteration of TF ever was TF: Prime. This was the series I had been waiting for. It struck the perfect balance among all of the elements that make Transformers work: well-paced, cohesive stories; character development, a strong voice cast, amazing visuals and the proper mix of action, adventure and emotional pull. The humans were placed well, too. Story arcs made sense and wrapped up pretty neatly with only a few bumps. No surpise, then, that it was nominated and won several Emmys.

Just imagine the quality of TF: Prime attached to a Bay-sized budget. Think about what that might produce.

Transformers Prime and good quality don't belong in the same sentence especially since behind the scenes was a giant disaster worse then any Bay film and it screwed up all of Hasbro's grand plans for the aligned continuity because the show developers refused to do what Hasbro asked of them.

The story was only relic hunts with relics that were mostly never used or spoken of again besides the season premiers and finales, there was no character development since either people forget all their progress (Arcee) or their killed off because the writers couldn't do squat with them (Breakdown, Dreadwing) and the show was hardly emotional especially since it hardly left the status quo and the stakes were never high even with Unicron involved.

The last good Transformers show was Animated actually it was the only decent Transformers show besides Beast Wars and Beast Machines everything else is entertaining but actually bad quality.

77Prime84 wrote:When will Hasbro get this?

When will we get something better?

Never we won't because even once Bay leaves Hasbro is going to get someone else to do the exact same thing because that's how life and business work and there will never be a director who has the same obsessed romanticized view that we have of the franchise.

All of the stuff we want from a Transformers movie isn't going to happen in our lifetimes assuming of course that the franchise isn't kicked to the curb like GI Joe after a couple years since this franchise is going down hill slowly.

Transformers will never be the powerhouse franchise like Star Wars then again the last few movies have also been entertaining but actually pretty ba.

Seibertron wrote:

77Prime84 wrote:When will Hasbro get this?

Hasbro gets it, or else we wouldn't have Transformers Prime. The movies and their stories, are out of their hands if I understand everything correctly. I'm assuming that it's similar to Marvel with FOX. Hasbro handed over most of their rights for control of the Transformers films (if I'm wording this incorrectly, someone please advise immediately) over to Paramount and Michael Bay waaaay back in 2001/2002 when these deals were originally made.

But I assure you, Hasbro gets it! Promise!!!

They obviously don't "get it" and continue to make the same mistakes for years now and their clearly not changing their minds.

Their a high up there business that don't care about anything else besides getting the money from our wallets like every other company in the world so the will try but not put any real effort to make quality products because they never have so far in the past 30 or so years like heck the original Transformers were recycled from another toyline.

Deadput wrote:The last good Transformers show was Animated actually it was the only decent Transformers show besides Beast Wars and Beast Machines everything else is entertaining but actually bad quality.

I've never cared for any TF TV show. None have appealed to me. Sure I sometimes watched the G1 cartoon cos it was there but to me it paled in comparison not just to the Marvel UK comics but also to almost every other action cartoon of the 80s. It's idiotic plots and constant production errors annoyed the hell out of me and it amazes me whenever G1 cartoon fans slag off the movies plots when the cartoon was NEVER any better. Even the cartoon's rather enjoyable cinematic outing was simply a blatant Star Wars rip off and I wasn't that fond of Star Wars to start off with (in fact I detest the vast majority of the supposedly best SW film, the Empire Strikes Back. Good start, good end, BORING AS HELL MIDDLE! F*** YOU, YODA, YOU TEDIOUS GOBLIN MUPPET THING) made purely to sell a whole range of new toys while trying to convince you the ones you'd been collecting the past year or two were obsolete.

Animated is by far my least fave not just for the (in my opinion) awful aesthetics and character designs but some of the most terrible characters in all of TF fiction particularly in the first season. It was the show that made me think ehhh, Armada & it's follow ups probably weren't that bad (they were but I disliked Animated even more). Armada sure had a good video game in the form of that PS2 title released by Atari though. First proper good TF game in my opinion.

I still find Beast Wars and Beast Machines too much of an eyesore to be able to even try get into those. I did watch the first season of Beast Wars but again I just couldn't get into it whether the writing, voice acting or the lousy CGI (low budget 90's CGI never did it for me whether in full CGI shows like Beast Wars and Reboot or even the godawful video game trend of pre-rendered 3D sprites and stuff. Properly defined pixel art almost always looked better).

Yes I'd like a bit more depth to the movie characters and it pisses me off that IDW stopped doing comics that helped with it a couple movies back. It's about the only damn use I had for IDW Transformers and I bought all of them back then. But still the movies provide the joy and excitement to me of seeing beautifully complex realistically designed transforming robots convincingly brought into an actual real-world live action environment with lots of action, gorgeous visuals and entertainment which has had me buy all four previous films on Blu Ray with the fifth a definite purchase too and kept me buying Transformers action figures along the way largely from the movies. I've bought some from various other G1-styled TF toylines such as Classics, Generations or Titans Return but sold most of them on now cos they just don't appeal to me in their designs the way the movie designs do both in robot or alt-modes mostly keeping just the ones that appeal to me on a deeper level than just 'cool toy' or have a sentimental reason for being still in my collection.

Sorry for going on. I'll stop there, even after deleting much more stuff I had typed. Just a bit fed up of always being made to feel like a worthless idiot cos I love something that gets bad reviews when I often find highly praised stuff not to my tastes (seriously though how many people have a large collection of winners of the best picture oscar amongst their very most fave movies ever?). I love what I love. Can't help it. When there's so much that just doesn't do it for me at all (am really not into MCU, game of thrones, walking dead, harry potter, jurassic park, lord of the rings etc) in this world I do find myself getting very passionate about the stuff I do enjoy.

Again sorry for this. I guess i just needed to type this stuff out of my head I guess. Maybe I should take another break. I don't want to offend or annoy anyone on this forum. I'll leave this topic though alone at least for now. Sorry

I went as fan of movies and as fan of transformers could be worse we get two movies like gijoe end of movies and we all we have to talk about comics, toys games tv shows and convention news before movies came along and transformers was not as popular back then then they are now

SillyMcGilly wrote:This is the manliest manly Transformers video EVER. It's WICKED.

The ending is great too, I liked watching them slice the watermelon. Also the Prime costume they had was pretty neat.

Rodimus Prime wrote:

Seibertron wrote:Hm ... should I have put my review in a different topic? I didn't mean it to turn into my review, but it seems like it started to happen that way.

Well, we do have the review thread, which include spoilers, even though your posts didn't:
spoiler-thread-for-transformers-the-last-knight-review-with-spoilers-added-6-20--t109402.php

And personally, I feel bad for you not being able to enjoy 3D, this TF film in particular looked amazing in that format.

Yeah Seibs wrote the review in the right place, this is where we discuss the film, when we dont dive into spoilers.

As for the 3D, once again we are in great agreement, Rodimus! On really cool thing about this film was how the 3D never melted away into the background. It never let up, I was very impressed with that. But of course, all my beefs are with the film, not the 3D, and I would rather have a great 2D movie than a 3D film which I wish I didnt pay for.

Deadput wrote:

Seibertron wrote:

77Prime84 wrote:When will Hasbro get this?

Hasbro gets it, or else we wouldn't have Transformers Prime. The movies and their stories, are out of their hands if I understand everything correctly. I'm assuming that it's similar to Marvel with FOX. Hasbro handed over most of their rights for control of the Transformers films (if I'm wording this incorrectly, someone please advise immediately) over to Paramount and Michael Bay waaaay back in 2001/2002 when these deals were originally made.

But I assure you, Hasbro gets it! Promise!!!

They obviously don't "get it" and continue to make the same mistakes for years now and their clearly not changing their minds.

We are talking about different things here. Saying Hasbro doesnt get it because of how crappy some films are is like saying Marvel doesnt get it because look at how crappy X-Men Origins Wolverine was. We are talking about 2 different creative forces. Hasbro does not have the movie rights to Transformers. I am 100% certain that John Warden, the head Transformers designer at Hasbro, would much rather have a more G1 like film with an emphasis on the robots. But he isnt behind the wheel, Paramount is, and Michael Bay.

From regular news finder Scottimus Prime, we have news for all you Steve Jablonsky fans out there: the score for Transformers: The Last Knight can currently be found on iTunes and streaming service Spotify! Check out the tracklist below, and click through to listen to the score if so inclined.

I'm not saying anything here, but I'm just saying that Seibertrons' completely objective review was that there were a number of good things, and the bad thing about the movie was that he saw it in 3D.

Deadput wrote:

77Prime84 wrote:
In my opinion, the best iteration of TF ever was TF: Prime.

The story was only relic hunts with relics that were mostly never used or spoken of again besides the season premiers and finales, there was no character development since either people forget all their progress (Arcee) or their killed off because the writers couldn't do squat with them (Breakdown, Dreadwing) and the show was hardly emotional especially since it hardly left the status quo and the stakes were never high even with Unicron involved.

The situation you're describing is nothing at all like the Cube or the Matrix or the Space Bridge from the first, second or third movies, or any of the various characters who show up on screen and then disappear without any development at all like Brawl or Blackout or Jolt or Grindor or Ravage or Demolisher or the other Constructicons or Barracade prior to TLK or the Dinobots in AOE or the construction vehicle guy in the junkyard or Megatrons' gang or Infernocus in TLK.

dragons wrote:I went as fan of movies and as fan of transformers could be worse we get two movies like gijoe end of movies and we all we have to talk about comics, toys games tv shows and convention news before movies came along and transformers was not as popular back then then they are now

We are on the same wavelength here. Went in as a Transformers fan, came out as one. Enjoyed it for what it is, acknowledges that it is no where near perfect, but still enjoyed it as a fan anyway. Went and saw it again tonight. Will post some additional thoughts over in the TLK thread.

And also, are we really saying that since Seibertron got to go to the red carpet release and got to hang out with everyone there, that they are making him or he is choosing to suck up to them by writing it was good? Are we really that sour? Seibertron's post basically said the same thing that several other members said, with good and bad mixed in and his take on it. Is it really hard to believe those are actual thoughts?

D-Maximus_Prime wrote:

dragons wrote:I went as fan of movies and as fan of transformers could be worse we get two movies like gijoe end of movies and we all we have to talk about comics, toys games tv shows and convention news before movies came along and transformers was not as popular back then then they are now

We are on the same wavelength here. Went in as a Transformers fan, came out as one. Enjoyed it for what it is, acknowledges that it is no where near perfect, but still enjoyed it as a fan anyway. Went and saw it again tonight. Will post some additional thoughts over in the TLK thread.

And also, are we really saying that since Seibertron got to go to the red carpet release and got to hang out with everyone there, that they are making him or he is choosing to suck up to them by writing it was good? Are we really that sour? Seibertron's post basically said the same thing that several other members said, with good and bad mixed in and his take on it. Is it really hard to believe those are actual thoughts?

For the record, in case and before this turns into a real thing, that's not what I was saying, or was even suggesting. My comment was that the criticism of the movie was not a thing of the movie, but of the format it was seen in. If I'm lactose intolerant and I go to a pizza place and can't eat the pizza, and then use that as my criticism of the establishment, I'm not actually critiquing the food, but rather its format. Saying the 3D bothers you doesn't actually make any statement on the movie, but on the 3D itself. That's all I was saying.

Dagon wrote:

D-Maximus_Prime wrote:

dragons wrote:I went as fan of movies and as fan of transformers could be worse we get two movies like gijoe end of movies and we all we have to talk about comics, toys games tv shows and convention news before movies came along and transformers was not as popular back then then they are now

We are on the same wavelength here. Went in as a Transformers fan, came out as one. Enjoyed it for what it is, acknowledges that it is no where near perfect, but still enjoyed it as a fan anyway. Went and saw it again tonight. Will post some additional thoughts over in the TLK thread.

And also, are we really saying that since Seibertron got to go to the red carpet release and got to hang out with everyone there, that they are making him or he is choosing to suck up to them by writing it was good? Are we really that sour? Seibertron's post basically said the same thing that several other members said, with good and bad mixed in and his take on it. Is it really hard to believe those are actual thoughts?

For the record, in case and before this turns into a real thing, that's not what I was saying, or was even suggesting. My comment was that the criticism of the movie was not a thing of the movie, but of the format it was seen in. If I'm lactose intolerant and I go to a pizza place and can't eat the pizza, and then use that as my criticism of the establishment, I'm not actually critiquing the food, but rather its format. Saying the 3D bothers you doesn't actually make any statement on the movie, but on the 3D itself. That's all I was saying.

OK. Well we already had people start saying it, so I wanted to make that clear. It also seemed liked you were glossing over his whole paragraph about the bad things, that was followed by a paragraph about not liking 3D. Just so you see how I saw this and how I don't want this to be a thing nor do I believe you were making it a thing

D-Maximus_Prime wrote:

Dagon wrote:

D-Maximus_Prime wrote:

dragons wrote:I went as fan of movies and as fan of transformers could be worse we get two movies like gijoe end of movies and we all we have to talk about comics, toys games tv shows and convention news before movies came along and transformers was not as popular back then then they are now

We are on the same wavelength here. Went in as a Transformers fan, came out as one. Enjoyed it for what it is, acknowledges that it is no where near perfect, but still enjoyed it as a fan anyway. Went and saw it again tonight. Will post some additional thoughts over in the TLK thread.

And also, are we really saying that since Seibertron got to go to the red carpet release and got to hang out with everyone there, that they are making him or he is choosing to suck up to them by writing it was good? Are we really that sour? Seibertron's post basically said the same thing that several other members said, with good and bad mixed in and his take on it. Is it really hard to believe those are actual thoughts?

For the record, in case and before this turns into a real thing, that's not what I was saying, or was even suggesting. My comment was that the criticism of the movie was not a thing of the movie, but of the format it was seen in. If I'm lactose intolerant and I go to a pizza place and can't eat the pizza, and then use that as my criticism of the establishment, I'm not actually critiquing the food, but rather its format. Saying the 3D bothers you doesn't actually make any statement on the movie, but on the 3D itself. That's all I was saying.

OK. Well we already had people start saying it, so I wanted to make that clear. It also seemed liked you were glossing over his whole paragraph about the bad things, that was followed by a paragraph about not liking 3D. Just so you see how I saw this and how I don't want this to be a thing nor do I believe you were making it a thing

I also wasn't the first person to say anything related to it, nor did I make any accusations. If we're going to do this "I'm not saying you said, but it seems like you said but I know you didn't" we might as well be accurate with it.

Seibertron wrote:

77Prime84 wrote:When will Hasbro get this?

Hasbro gets it (or at least the Transformers brand team definitely does), or else we wouldn't have Transformers Prime, Transformers Animated, or other examples (though I might argue that some of the greatest Transformers stories of all time are stories where they had outside help such as the G1 cartoons and comics and Beast Wars, though not all of it, which bears some resemblance to how things were initially setup with Paramount). The movies and their stories are out of their hands if I understand everything correctly. I'm assuming that it's similar to Marvel with FOX. Hasbro handed over most of their rights for control of the Transformers films (if I'm wording this incorrectly, someone please advise immediately) over to Paramount and Michael Bay waaaay back in 2001/2002 when these deals were originally made.

But I assure you, Hasbro (or at least the brand team) gets it! Promise!!!

I updated this post to clarify a few of my earlier thoughts which I wrote in haste. To summarize the changes, Hasbro gets it or at least the Transformers brand team definitely gets it. Promise!

I can't help but wonder if the writers of the movies had followed in the vein of Beast Wars or Prime and consistently used only 4 or 5 characters from each side in addition to the humans would the movies have had at least a less cluttered and better flowing story? It kinda worked with the 1st film as the TF cast was kept small, but then starting with RoTF they just threw random additional characters in.

So after seeing a press screening by myself on Monday and attending the US Premiere here in Chicago with my wife (and found out later that night at the after party that we sat in the same row with the Transformers brand team), my wife and I took our daughters (8 years old and 2.5), my daughter's buddy next door (who's 9), my buddy Ben/Shadowbeast from our forums, and my wife's cousin and her husband and their 5 year old son to go to a 2D showing at Muvico in Rosemont (for those of you familiar with my area, it's the movie theater near where TFcon Chicago was located).

2D is definitely the way to go for me. I was able to be immersed in the movie at last, which was enjoyable. The audio, which had been ear blowing at the first 2 showings I attended, was at a much more tolerable level ... and surprise! Thanks to that I could finally understand what each and every Transformer said very clearly, including the Knights at the beginning (which I swore one of the podcast guys said during our recording the other night that I couldn't understand them because they were speaking Celtic, which I didn't catch at all tonight because I could actually hear them, and could understand all of the "deep" talking Transformers, including Canopy. It was wonderful, plus I caught various things that the humans said as well that I had missed because of the blaring audio at the first two showings.

For any of you who have issues with focusing on the 3D initially or just find it frustrating to watch, I did some reading just now about 3D viewing with astigmatism. I have a very slight astigmatism which causes me to have 25/20 vision or something along those lines (things further away are visible but need to be sharpened, much like you would an image on a computer in Photoshop). After reading these articles for the past 30 minutes, maybe it's time for me to make a trip to an optometrist regarding my poor 3D viewing experiences.

https://www.google.com/#q=eye+%22astigm ... +3d+movies

With that aside, I still enjoyed the movie. And I enjoyed it for what it was, the good and the bad. It's not a perfect movie, nor did I ever expect it to be (especially as a die-hard Transformers fan). But it is definitely an enjoyable movie. I liked The Last Knight in the same vein that I liked the first movie, Revenge of the Fallen, Dark of the Moon, and Age of Extinction. They all had their flaws, but there were things that I enjoyed watching in all of them as well.

One thing I caught during tonight's viewing (though I still didn't catch Scorn or Strafe if they're actually there in the Junkyard), was how you have to really pay attention to the fast moving dialogue during key scenes. Michael Bay's films have a habit of tossing in a very important line of dialogue about something that is happening, needs to happen, or will happen and if you miss that line, you won't know what's going on next. This also happens with visual cues where someone might grab something or do something quickly that you might miss while your eyes are focused elsewhere on the screen. Some of you will mock this line, but if you really want to follow the storyline, I think you really have to pay extreme attention to every line of dialogue and try to catch as much as you can. One could argue that you shouldn't have to work that hard to catch those things, but another might argue that it's his "art form" of sorts (or his style). I'm torn about how I feel about that because it's obvious to me that the film style is deliberate (but unfortunately is lost even on myself at times). It always intrigues me when I rewatch the previous Transformers films and I catch things that I've never caught before even though I've seen each of these movies dozens and dozens of times (with the exception of AOE which is probably only around a half dozen times or so). I can't remember what was said tonight that I caught, but I think it was something during the submarine "Transformer" jumping its moorings scene.

If any of you have doubts about whether or not my opinions have been compromised with this whole amazing experience with the Transformers films over the course of the past 10 years (especially with these incredible Last Knight experiences), I have gained an entire new appreciation for the art of Hollywood film making during the past year. The endless hours and tedious work and attention to detail that goes on behind the scenes to make a movie like Transformers The Last Knight is mind blowing.

One of the things that I constantly think about pertaining to this film, that didn't initially impress me at the time, was seeing a group of 4 or 5 people, "seamstresses" if you will, working on sewing parts of the "barbarian" warrior costumes. They told us that they were working on costumes for 300 to 400 warriors (if I recall correctly). At the time, it was all lost on me because I didn't care about seeing costumes being made from the era of 400 AD, especially when I was there to see them working on a Transformers movie. I had no frame of reference at the time. No story line to understand the relevance, nor had any movie trailers been released when I was seeing this. However, in retrospect, it might have been one of the coolest things I had seen, along with the massive sets for the underwater ship scene, Merlin's tomb and (if I'm remembering this correctly) Cybertron (Quintessa's throne room?). I was amazed that they would spend the amount of time and money to make that many costumes for that many actors instead of just CGI'ing them, and I was amazed that they built out those sets for that ship underwater including several of the knights and those tendrils hanging from the ceiling. I actually got to see a massive Cybertron set that was built out for the most part. Basically everything you see the actors interacting with during those scenes, walking on, etc, was all "real".

Regardless of whether or not I agree with Michael Bay's vision, I absolutely respect the man's talents and skills. I have seen him work on 3 of these films now, TLK being the most and closest I've seen him working after seeing him directing for part of a day last year and seeing him show us some stuff in his office in Santa Monica. I doubt many directors work harder than Michael Bay. Again, this is regardless of how you feel about his final products. This is just talking about that the man is extremely passionate about his work as a director and his vision. He works his ass off and he is an amazing professional at one he does.

To bring this back down to every day Transformers stuff in our world, for those of you who are familiar with Transformers UK writer Simon Furman, my thoughts about Furman's writings is similar to what I think about Michael Bay's directing. However, I feel like Furman has done some of his best work when he is confined and has to figure out how to work within the box. Some of less beloved work of Furman (Simon, if you happen to be reading this ... you are absolutely awesome, I love most of your comics, I've enjoyed drinking some beers with you and other fond memories, so no offense!) is when Simon has been left to his own devices with the Transformers stories. I think Michael Bay needs to have some higher ups who can confine and rein him in a bit. But at the same time, especially in his 50s, I doubt Michael Bay would want to be directed so we'll probably never see that happen.

So I'm kind of rambling here, which I have done on my own forums for quite some time. I love good debates about movies and I appreciate my buddy philswitch_engage calling me out so I can defend myself. Here's to that next beer my friend!

Rodimus Prime wrote:I can't help but wonder if the writers of the movies had followed in the vein of Beast Wars or Prime and consistently used only 4 or 5 characters from each side in addition to the humans would the movies have had at least a less cluttered and better flowing story? It kinda worked with the 1st film as the TF cast was kept small, but then starting with RoTF they just threw random additional characters in.

I think it would have been great if the movies had had a core group from the 1st film. However, the main Autobots evolved. It was really jarring to me with Age of Extinction, which I'm assuming is part of the reason why AOE is my least favorite of the 5. It was too much new at one time. It was nice to see the AOE Autobots return, sans a couple of Dinobots, to TLK, and that everyone survived.

Man, I keep typing things I want to say in response, but keep contradicting myself, so I keep deleting lines.

I want the additional characters, but sometimes characters can just stay in the background. No need for them to get a lot of screen time. However, if someone like "Hot Rod" is going to get a decent amount of screen time, then they should be fleshed out a bit as a character. I really don't get the point of Hot Rod other than as a plot device to literally bring Vivian into Cade's story, add a little bit of humor to the screen (some of which was funny, some not) and to be a plot device with his slowing time down power (which I could've completely done with out).

However, I'm going to contradict myself a little bit here that with Cade saying to Mini-Grimlock (?) that he's coming into his powers, I can't help but like the idea if they start introducing special powers for some of the Transformers. I really liked that with the original G1 cast with characters like Hound, Mirage, Skywarp, Soundwave, etc. Maybe with the acknowledgement of "magic" and advanced alien capabilities, maybe Transformers with special abilities going forward won't be such an odd thing. That could be a very awesome thing for the film franchise.

Initial reports for the Transformers: The Last Knight box office numbers are starting to roll in, looking at China, but also the likes of Australia, Korea, Russia, Indoesia and a number of European scenes (bar the UK). Check out more information here and below!

Rolling out in 41 overseas markets this weekend, Paramount’s Transformers: The Last Knight has clocked an estimated $85M through Friday, according to the studio. That includes $47.9M (RMB 330.76M) from China which, in that market, is 69% above Transformers: Age Of Extinction’s June 27, 2014 bow in local currency. Par puts the opening day for Last Knight at No. 3 for an import ever in the Middle Kingdom (including Thursday’s midnight shows). The debut sets the film on track for a $100M+ weekend launch there.

Elsewhere, the $37.1M made up in other markets appears to be a mix of some Thursday openings (Korea) and those markets that bowed today, although it was not clear on how they break down in all cases.

The 5th installment in the $3.8B worldwide grossing franchise, and Michael Bay’s last turn at the helm, hit Korea with $2M in previews on Wednesday, followed by $1.4M from 1,711 screens on Thursday and $1.9M today. That lifts the cume there to $5.3M through Friday. Korea on the last Transformers was ultimately the No.3 market.

In 2014, Transformers 4’s first China day came in around $30M. That film was made under a co-operation agreement and shot locally. Transformers 5 has a local marketing partner in Wanda (owner of the most screens in the Middle Kingdom) with Weying Technology and Huahua also investing. Bay and the team traveled last week to a premiere in Guangzhou. Chinese singer Jason Zhang, who performed a promotional song for the film, was also in attendance.

All markets reporting (which does not include the UK) came in at No. 1. Rounding out the Top 10 bows after China and Korea through Friday are Russia at $2.8M on 2,460 screens, followed by Indonesia with $1.1M from 255 dates for the biggest Paramount launch day ever (the cume is $2.3M so far); Malaysia ($845K at 145 dates); Australia (2-day total $1.5M); Germany ($978K including previews on 828 screens); the Philippines with $919K on 503; Thailand at $715K including previews; and Hong Kong at $504K after Day 1 at No. 1.

The Last Knight is bypassing such markets as France and Spain this week, as well as waiting for Latin America to rumble with Bumblebee later on the calendar.

This was the case for AoE, right? I don't have the proof to back it up, but I mildly remember a family member telling me that AoE did better internationally than in the US.

Also, I have to wait for my hometown theater to get the movie in. As a deep fan of the franchise (the movies being my gateway into the awesomeness that is Transformers) is TLK worth the five dollar ticket? I'll probably go regardless, but I am curious to know.

Nexus Knight wrote:This was the case for AoE, right? I don't have the proof to back it up, but I mildly remember a family member telling me that AoE did better internationally than in the US.

Also, I have to wait for my hometown theater to get the movie in. As a deep fan of the franchise (the movies being my gateway into the awesomeness that is Transformers) is TLK worth the five dollar ticket? I'll probably go regardless, but I am curious to know.

Yep, it performed reaaaally well in China. In which it makes AOE broke box office record in China at that time. (until Fast&Furious 7 take that spot)

I watched TLK with my brothers 2 days ago and while I would say that it have some flaws (too many unnecessary humans scenes, forced romance) it worth all the money for the amazing visuals and actions. also, Anthony Hopkins and Cogman was really entertaining.

Hot Rod was also with Bee in the WWII scene. If I remember right, when Hot Rod was 1st mentioned like 2 years ago they said he would act as Bee's big brother. But I guess they didn't elaborate on that. I was worried they would totally waste him as a character but after Cogman and Burton he's my 3rd favorite. He just needs more screen time.

Also, is it just me or did Optimus get the most cringeworthy lines in the entire movie?

Ryuki wrote:

Nexus Knight wrote:This was the case for AoE, right? I don't have the proof to back it up, but I mildly remember a family member telling me that AoE did better internationally than in the US.

Also, I have to wait for my hometown theater to get the movie in. As a deep fan of the franchise (the movies being my gateway into the awesomeness that is Transformers) is TLK worth the five dollar ticket? I'll probably go regardless, but I am curious to know.

Yep, it performed reaaaally well in China. In which it makes AOE broke box office record in China at that time. (until Fast&Furious 7 take that spot)

I watched TLK with my brothers 2 days ago and while I would say that it have some flaws (too many unnecessary humans scenes, forced romance) it worth all the money for the amazing visuals and actions. also, Anthony Hopkins and Cogman was really entertaining.

Thank you! I'll be going with my brother as soon as we get in theaters... Which will be the next two or three weeks...

Nexus Knight wrote:This was the case for AoE, right? I don't have the proof to back it up, but I mildly remember a family member telling me that AoE did better internationally than in the US.

Also, I have to wait for my hometown theater to get the movie in. As a deep fan of the franchise (the movies being my gateway into the awesomeness that is Transformers) is TLK worth the five dollar ticket? I'll probably go regardless, but I am curious to know.

$5 a ticket? We only get that at some older theaters around the northwest suburbs of Chicago on Tuesdays, and not at the nice theaters with the stadium style seating. We paid $12 each for adult tickets last night (5 adults total in our group) and $9 each for 3 kids ages 5 and up and my 2 year old daughter got in free.

Definitely worth $5 a ticket or more! $5 is a steal to see a brand new blockbuster movie.

Seibertron wrote:

Nexus Knight wrote:Also, I have to wait for my hometown theater to get the movie in. As a deep fan of the franchise (the movies being my gateway into the awesomeness that is Transformers) is TLK worth the five dollar ticket? I'll probably go regardless, but I am curious to know.

$5 a ticket? We only get that at some older theaters around the northwest suburbs of Chicago on Tuesdays, and not at the nice theaters with the stadium style seating. We paid $12 each for adult tickets last night (5 adults total in our group) and $9 each for 3 kids ages 5 and up and my 2 year old daughter got in free.

Definitely worth $5 a ticket or more! $5 is a steal to see a brand new blockbuster movie.

And kids under six, I believe, get in free. There is (or was) a theater in Tulsa (a forty five minute drive from me) that had tickets cheaper. Oklahoma is a pretty great place to live. Only sucky part is, it's hard to find current toys at the local Wal-Mart. We were getting Titans Return wave one w/ Combiner Wars wave 3.

Haven't been on for a while due to college work and stress in my family lately, but I have been able to watch The Last Knight to get some worries off of my head for a while.

I'll be honest and say most reviews seem to go overboard with the bashing with this film. As a movie goer, I can't really agree with them saying that it's the worst film of the year *cough* Fifty Shades Darker *cough*, but as a Transformers fan who grew up with the franchise thanks to Cybertron and the first movie, I can't help but feel that it lacks what I enjoyed from the original trilogy (even ROTF, for some of it's problems, felt like a sequel that fit in with the continuity compared to AOE/TLK); it's like after DOTM, the newer films don't know what to achieve. I don't hate them both, but I feel that if they were made a bit smoother for both fans who saw the older movies and wondered what happened in between 3 and 4 and newcomers who probably haven't seen the previous movies before, then I could like them a bit more; plus, it gets really confusing when some characters return while others don't, not to mention the Dinobots added less to the movie than in AOE.

What I did like though was the medieval theme (though it did make the whole timeline confusing even if there were so many retcons), a corrupt Optimus Prime being under the control of Quintessa, some of the new characters and having them do more than I thought they would, Isabella was pretty refreshing compared to most young actresses, the return of Lennox and Simmons (though it sucks that Epps didn't get to return), seeing actual Megatron and Decepticons compared to Galvatron and his KSI drones (though the Decepticons are kind of like henchmen in comparison to the first movie's Cons IMO), and the action feels a bit more grounded than the previous movie.

So The Last Knight may not be the best movie ever, but it's in no way as terrible as most made it out to be. However, I will probably be sticking with the older movies I already have. It's fine if Paramount and Hasbro wants to continue with the story after The Last Knight, but I kind of wish the Bumblebee prequel could be the final movie so we can go back full circle with Transformers. I don't want to see the characters return on Earth for the third time, though bringing in new characters who have never been on Earth before while being guided by at least one or two of the old characters back as mentors (Hot Rod and Bee for example) could work.

I think taking a break while thinking of a reboot should be a good idea, especially after the franchise is now 10 years old; and should a reboot be in the works, I hope it takes elements from lesser known franchises and that the chatacter designs aren't straight rehashes of the G1 forms (I'v actually thought of a fire turck Optimus, Prowl being a mix of RID and Animated, Red Alert being the medic, and Blitzwing being in the Starscream role as he is under the shadow of Megatron and Starscream).

The whole point of this movie is just to try and explain why the same story being has been told repeatedly in the other movies.

Seibertron wrote:

77Prime84 wrote:When will Hasbro get this?

Hasbro gets it (or at least the Transformers brand team definitely does), or else we wouldn't have Transformers Prime, Transformers Animated, or other examples (though I might argue that some of the greatest Transformers stories of all time are stories where they had outside help such as the G1 cartoons and comics and Beast Wars, though not all of it, which bears some resemblance to how things were initially setup with Paramount). The movies and their stories are out of their hands if I understand everything correctly. I'm assuming that it's similar to Marvel with FOX. Hasbro handed over most of their rights for control of the Transformers films (if I'm wording this incorrectly, someone please advise immediately) over to Paramount and Michael Bay waaaay back in 2001/2002 when these deals were originally made.

But I assure you, Hasbro (or at least the brand team) gets it! Promise!!!

That IS reassuring, and thanks for the clarification. I was unaware of how the 'chain of command' worked! Interesting!

Quantum Surge wrote:I'll be honest and say most reviews seem to go overboard with the bashing with this film.

It's always been like that. Most of the hate these movies get is spawned from clickbait BS.

The Hollywood Reporter has published a new interview, this time with Jerrod Carmichael, who plays Jimmy in Transformers: The Last Knight. During the interview, Jerrod talks about how The Last Knight was a big learning experience, as he actually had to change a joke he had created because it would not translate well in other languages. He also talks about how money is a factor in bringing actors together, but how having the fun they did on set was also a good way to bring them together. He also refers to Sir Anthony Hopkins as "C-Hop" and Hopkins actually responds to it. Check out the full interview by following the link above, and catch a few snippets below.

118-degree heat in Arizona sounds like a pretty rough first day.

But it was nice because sometimes you feel so sterile in these sound stages, just standing around and holding green tea. We were sweating and running and it felt like a real experience. And Michael Bay is such a hands-on director — he’s sprinkling dirt on people’s faces and handling the smoke machine and the camera and the lights.

.....

Was there anything that you weren’t expecting about blockbuster filmmaking?

Running was a surprise. It was a great deal of running — and I mean long-distance running. Because there are helicopters capturing [the scene]. We are outside of Stonehenge and Mike’s on a bullhorn like "I need you run from over here to over there." And that’s just take one so he goes "Okay, do it again!" It’s truthfully the most I ever worked out before in my life.

.....

Has seeing Michael Bay at work inspired you to try filmmaking yourself?

Filmmaking is unique in that you craft everything around it — the lighting, the dialogue, the scenery, the perspective — and I’m infatuated with that now and it’s where a lot of my attention has been as of late. I think that now more than ever you have to be cautious of doing something because you can versus doing something because you can contribute to it. I am still figuring out exactly how I can contribute, as a director. But I want to make sure that in doing it it’s not just because I could, because that is not a good enough reason. You owe audiences more than that.

Rodimus Prime wrote:Also, is it just me or did Optimus get the most cringeworthy lines in the entire movie?

His lines were pretty cringeworthy. But I found Nitro Zeus had some cringeworthy ones too (sleeping with your wife, wtf?!) as well as Mark Wahlberg and some of the young boys.

Sooo... what's up all. New to the forum. Longtime reader, just never joined. Lifelong TF fan. Decade-long lover of the TF movies, while at the same time pulling my hair out about them for many of the very reasons often discussed.

So... Megatron. Was essentially a chemistry experiment in AoE. Basically a brain in the jar, somehow used to power a remote control robot named Galvatron. Wasn't killed in that movie. Shows up in this movie as Megatron... again.

Did I miss an explanation offered up in TLK about how the hell that lil transition happened, or were we just supposed to write that significant part of the story for ourselves as we watched? Just making sure I didn't miss something, or if this was yet another unconnected dot in the TF series.

TheDen wrote:Did I miss an explanation offered up in TLK about how the hell that lil transition happened, or were we just supposed to write that significant part of the story for ourselves as we watched? Just making sure I didn't miss something, or if this was yet another unconnected dot in the TF series.

It is yet another unconnected dot in the TF series. But thanks for joining the site, feel free to discuss the parts you did like about the film (or disliked)

So, remember when Bay got some deserved flak for redecoing Winston Churchill's home in Nazi regalia and he said "wait til you see the movie to reserve judgement, Churchill is actually a big hero in the movie"?

Yeah, it was exactly as tasteless as the fandom thought it would be and Churchill barely even got a namedrop.

TheDen wrote:Sooo... what's up all. New to the forum. Longtime reader, just never joined. Lifelong TF fan. Decade-long lover of the TF movies, while at the same time pulling my hair out about them for many of the very reasons often discussed.

So... Megatron. Was essentially a chemistry experiment in AoE. Basically a brain in the jar, somehow used to power a remote control robot named Galvatron. Wasn't killed in that movie. Shows up in this movie as Megatron... again.

Did I miss an explanation offered up in TLK about how the hell that lil transition happened, or were we just supposed to write that significant part of the story for ourselves as we watched? Just making sure I didn't miss something, or if this was yet another unconnected dot in the TF series.

They said Megatron had been gone for a while in between AOE and TLK. And in the movie, he has that red Quintessa mark on his face. I'm assuming she got in contact with him and gave him his identity back.

Which, in essence, confirms they left it to you to fill in the plot holes yourself.

JazZeke wrote:So, remember when Bay got some deserved flak for redecoing Winston Churchill's home in Nazi regalia and he said "wait til you see the movie to reserve judgement, Churchill is actually a big hero in the movie"?

Yeah, it was exactly as tasteless as the fandom thought it would be and Churchill barely even got a namedrop.

There's nothing wrong with what he did at all.

SlyTF1 wrote:

JazZeke wrote:So, remember when Bay got some deserved flak for redecoing Winston Churchill's home in Nazi regalia and he said "wait til you see the movie to reserve judgement, Churchill is actually a big hero in the movie"?

Yeah, it was exactly as tasteless as the fandom thought it would be and Churchill barely even got a namedrop.

There's nothing wrong with what he did at all.

So you don't think there's anything wrong with decorating the home of one of Britain's most respected leaders with the iconography of his hated enemies, an iconography representative and hatred and genocide?

Think very carefully before you answer.

Just a reminder to you guys that opinions will be different as everyone has his/her own perspective. Even though you may not agree, be respectful toward each other.

Actually since watching the movie.....i didn't think it was as bad as some were making it out to be

YES! it wasn't any better nor worse than the previous ones

YES! some action scenes did feel very cluttered

YES! some characters in it appeared in some parts of the film & disappeared for great chunks of the movie before briefly returning! or other characters (that you wanted!) didn't have enough screentime

YES! there were some TF's that we never saw their transformations....or transformed at allCogman's Headmaster gimmick was never shown(thank heavens for the toys...or at least the DLX or Voy Class fig) in the film...prob cut?...& if so! it'll no doubt turn up in the deleted scenes on the Blu Ray, we never saw Onslaught's alt mode! even though we saw pics of it in the run up to the movie! in fact...he was barely in the movie & he got offed!

& YES! the whole UNICRON thing! which is obvious by now...been inspired by TF Prime & is obviously a set up for a future movie(TF 6?) & prob more about that character!(although a bit pissed off that they release a PRIMUS repaint! but NO....UNICRON repainted figure? at least for this movieline! even though we got a recent Platinum Edition one....but...maybe they're holding off on a movieline repainted figure for Transformers 6? or whatever?

JazZeke wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

JazZeke wrote:So, remember when Bay got some deserved flak for redecoing Winston Churchill's home in Nazi regalia and he said "wait til you see the movie to reserve judgement, Churchill is actually a big hero in the movie"?

Yeah, it was exactly as tasteless as the fandom thought it would be and Churchill barely even got a namedrop.

There's nothing wrong with what he did at all.

So you don't think there's anything wrong with decorating the home of one of Britain's most respected leaders with the iconography of his hated enemies, an iconography representative and hatred and genocide?

Nope.

It depends entirely on the context.

SlyTF1 wrote:

JazZeke wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

JazZeke wrote:So, remember when Bay got some deserved flak for redecoing Winston Churchill's home in Nazi regalia and he said "wait til you see the movie to reserve judgement, Churchill is actually a big hero in the movie"?

Yeah, it was exactly as tasteless as the fandom thought it would be and Churchill barely even got a namedrop.

There's nothing wrong with what he did at all.

So you don't think there's anything wrong with decorating the home of one of Britain's most respected leaders with the iconography of his hated enemies, an iconography representative and hatred and genocide?

Nope.

It depends entirely on the context.

And the context is: There were plenty other old mansions Bay could have used. Why, specifically, did he choose to drape Nazi iconography all over the home of a man whose greatest achievement was contributing to their defeat?