New Gizmodo Transformers Article: Michael Bay Is Why Transformers Got So Complicated
Friday, April 26th, 2013 2:17PM CDT
Category: Toy NewsPosted by: El Duque Views: 20,439
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"The reference style is so phenomenal in the movie tie-ins, we got more complicated than we had to," Lamb says. "Right now, there's a big effort to get back to simple; and more than simple, intuitive.
Bay and ILM (Industrial Light and Magic) work it pretty well," Lamb says, "But they also do some magic." In the movie, a car's parts could fold into infinitely small sections. Tiny pieces of interlocking plastic? Not so much.
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Posted by Manterax Prime on April 26th, 2013 @ 2:46pm CDT
Just don't give them those piece of shit gimmick weapons. We buy them for the figure, not the accessory.
Posted by Noideaforaname on April 26th, 2013 @ 3:01pm CDT
While Movie complexity got way out of hand, especially during RotF (Jetfire, Mixmaster, Blazemaster, Arcee, Leader Optimus *shudders*), I kinda think they're getting too simple to compensate. I'm not liking how, with many of the Beast Hunter figures, you can easily tell the exact (or at least close enough) transformation for even the Voyagers at just a glance. Thankfully the Generations aren't like that; perhaps not coincidentally the BH are more kid-oriented and the Generations more older fan-oriented, hmm...
RiD (the original series, with Sky-Byte and pals) had some really complex figures, too. I wonder what prompted that?
Posted by STngAR on April 26th, 2013 @ 3:02pm CDT
I have my views on the movie toys and I hope the next movie toys take a different path.
Posted by Ravage XK on April 26th, 2013 @ 3:29pm CDT
I quite like a complicated transformation, simple transformations seem somewhat lack lustre.
Posted by Lord_Onslaught on April 26th, 2013 @ 3:29pm CDT
I will take articulation over simplicity any day.
Posted by sabrigami on April 26th, 2013 @ 3:34pm CDT
Posted by CaptainMagic on April 26th, 2013 @ 3:52pm CDT
Posted by MINDVVIPE on April 26th, 2013 @ 3:59pm CDT
On the other hand though, WFC Prime has an awesomely complicated transformation, and looks great in both modes (to me anyway) while still being accurate to the game model.
Posted by Burn on April 26th, 2013 @ 4:24pm CDT
MINDVVIPE wrote:No more stupid weapon or light/sound gimmicks,
ugh. That would be nice because light/sound gimmicks take up space which could be used as part of the transformation. So many figures which could have been great have been made otherwise because of the need to dazzle kids.
Posted by Shelf Space on April 26th, 2013 @ 4:47pm CDT
Noideaforaname wrote:Movie complexity got way out of hand, especially during RotF (Arcee)
I hate that damn toy, I hate it so much... My daughter's super into Arcee (any girl Transformer really) so I got a bunch of 'em and that one in particular is prob one of the worst Transformers I've ever owned. And complexity-wise isn't the issue even though her transformation is shit, the damn thing can't stand up good, her arms are all retarded... ARRGH! Got me hot just thinkin about it.
Worst. Combiner. EVER!
Posted by Rated X on April 26th, 2013 @ 6:30pm CDT
Posted by MINDVVIPE on April 26th, 2013 @ 6:36pm CDT
Rated X wrote:Im probally in the minority, but I hate complex transformations. If I wanted a puzzle Id buy a Rubix Cube. If I wanted a challenge Id play todays video games. I enjoy looking at the figures displayed alot more than transforming them. I like the way classics figures transform. Nice and simple can even transform them after drinking a six pack of beer or more.
I was trying to transform warbot defender while I was hammered one time, took me a good twenty minutes.
Posted by Shockwave7 on April 26th, 2013 @ 7:46pm CDT
Most of the G1 figures didn't even have bendable arms, or knees. Heck, you were lucky if the lazy-@$$ designers would even bother letting you separate the legs instead of leaving them welded together, forcing you to 'hop' your figure around. And don't even get me started on how many of them simply told you to flip the vehicle over on it's back, revealing crudely sculpted robot-shaped bits. And THAT was supposed to be the 'transformation'.
Why in the world would anyone WANT to go back to that? If you're a collector, that is. Sure, if you're a fat, lazy, el-cheapo Hasbro designer, the idea of stone age transformers probably sounds like a dream come true. For me - not so much.
Certainly, I don't like a figure transformation to be so complicated that it becomes a chore. But with the 2007-2010 Generations figures, they hit a great balance. I say KEEP IT THERE.
The more recent figures bear the mark of the bad economy. The figures are thinner, more hollow, the plastic is flimsy and brittle. All signs of a company trying to cut corners in bad times. They tried to fool us in 2011-2012 by making the figures smaller and charging more for them. That didn't work - we still hated them because they sucked. Now they're trying to fool us by making restoring the figures to the size they should have been, but they're making the figures hollow now.
Well, I understand trying to make do in bad times. But for the love of Pete, DON'T bring back the G1 style 'Brickformers'.
Posted by TulioDude on April 26th, 2013 @ 8:53pm CDT
Posted by Valandar on April 26th, 2013 @ 9:18pm CDT
Complex and intuitive? Wonderful! Complex and "Where does this part go? Do I this bit before or after that bit?" Not so wonderful.
Posted by Eagleblaster on April 26th, 2013 @ 9:24pm CDT
And lets not even mention if you get stuck between robot mode and alt mode.
Posted by gavinfuzzy on April 26th, 2013 @ 9:39pm CDT
Yeah, I actually do like all the movie designs.
But Hasbro has been doing the movie / classics stuff one after another, so I guess it's only when it comes to the movie figures then they have to make it so complex.
Posted by welcometothedarksyde on April 26th, 2013 @ 10:44pm CDT
The fact is that the article's writer only looked at the original Transformers, and then the most recent ones. He didn't bother to look at the full timeline. Actually some Beast Wars toys are infamous for their fiddly-ness (Tigerhawk), and yet we're getting hung up over ROTF Optimus Prime that is not that hard to transform. As for my opinion, I like complexity if there is a good pay-off.
Posted by kronos6948 on April 26th, 2013 @ 11:18pm CDT
Bayformers have their difficulties too, but I do have to say some of the ROTF figures look great, and get even better looking with some paint apps. Leader class Optimus Prime (after removing the blades and adding some paint) is the best of the bunch, followed by Jetfire. Speaking of Jetfire, transforming him gives me the willies. I'm always afraid I'll break a tab. I'm just glad I've only transformed him twice.
Posted by kronos6948 on April 26th, 2013 @ 11:20pm CDT
Bayformers have their difficulties too, but I do have to say some of the ROTF figures look great, and get even better looking with some paint apps. Leader class Optimus Prime (after removing the blades and adding some paint) is the best of the bunch, followed by Jetfire. Speaking of Jetfire, transforming him gives me the willies. I'm always afraid I'll break a tab. I'm just glad I've only transformed him twice.
Posted by KNM2012 on April 27th, 2013 @ 7:01am CDT
Besides, to this day, I still hear rumors that the Japanese (Masterpiece) MP-5 Megatron is still the most complicated toy in terms of transforming. So yeah... As long as we do not mention him to Gizmodo, they will blame him for these fugly, complicated toys.
Posted by gantzrunner on April 28th, 2013 @ 12:32am CDT
oh yeah and
Posted by fenrir72 on April 28th, 2013 @ 12:41am CDT
Posted by noctorro on April 28th, 2013 @ 2:35am CDT
Rated X wrote:Im probally in the minority, but I hate complex transformations. If I wanted a puzzle Id buy a Rubix Cube. If I wanted a challenge Id play todays video games. I enjoy looking at the figures displayed alot more than transforming them. I like the way classics figures transform. Nice and simple can even transform them after drinking a six pack of beer or more.
With you here.
I like simple transformations with good articulation more then complex transformations.
Posted by DTR69 on April 28th, 2013 @ 2:49pm CDT
Shockwave7 wrote:Look, the G1 toys may be 'beloved', but let's be frank here. They're bricks. Back then they didn't have the know-how or the technology to do ball/socket joints, bicep/thigh swivels, waist rotation, and all the other things that make the contemporary figures so much better. And I for one do NOT want to 'go back' to those days before those existed.
Most of the G1 figures didn't even have bendable arms, or knees. Heck, you were lucky if the lazy-@$$ designers would even bother letting you separate the legs instead of leaving them welded together, forcing you to 'hop' your figure around. And don't even get me started on how many of them simply told you to flip the vehicle over on it's back, revealing crudely sculpted robot-shaped bits. And THAT was supposed to be the 'transformation'.
Why in the world would anyone WANT to go back to that? If you're a collector, that is. Sure, if you're a fat, lazy, el-cheapo Hasbro designer, the idea of stone age transformers probably sounds like a dream come true. For me - not so much.
Certainly, I don't like a figure transformation to be so complicated that it becomes a chore. But with the 2007-2010 Generations figures, they hit a great balance. I say KEEP IT THERE.
The more recent figures bear the mark of the bad economy. The figures are thinner, more hollow, the plastic is flimsy and brittle. All signs of a company trying to cut corners in bad times. They tried to fool us in 2011-2012 by making the figures smaller and charging more for them. That didn't work - we still hated them because they sucked. Now they're trying to fool us by making restoring the figures to the size they should have been, but they're making the figures hollow now.
Well, I understand trying to make do in bad times. But for the love of Pete, DON'T bring back the G1 style 'Brickformers'.
You and others are missing the point. Simpler transformations does not mean going back to G1 bricks. You won't even notice it when the toys are made. They mean the over the top transformations on screen.
For a start the first transformers, didn't have the legs welded together, the orginal transformers like Prime Megatron Soundwave, all had quite good limbs and articulation for the time, and that wa sin the 70s before they became transformers. Prime even had bendy knees ut that was removed in later production runs to reduce costs. The brick transformers were all designed, after Transformers had become established. The brick transformers were designed with health and safety in mind and also money. The original 70s designs were actualy more advanced than the 80s/90s but that was more to do with money than technology.
G1 transformers were bricks due to production and other limitations. Some of the most complicate dtransformers toys are actualy G1. Masterpiece figures are all g1 and they are very complicated. G1 designs have just as complicated designs. The translation between on screen and toy has a process of redesigning, and costs limit what can be done, also look at the variations of movie prime, you hav ethe basic an ddeluxe versions, all the same Movie character but with different levels of trans formation.
G! MASTERPIECE IS THE MOST COMPLICATED TRANSFORMATION. SIMPLER ON CREEN DESIGNS DOES NOT MEAN BRICK DESIGNS. BRICK DESIGNS ARE PRODUCTION LIMITATIONS. G1 WAS NEVER MENT TO BE BRICKS, THE BRICKS WERE A RESULT OF PRODUCTION.
Posted by craggy on April 28th, 2013 @ 3:28pm CDT
Complexity of transformation is definitely cyclical as others have mentioned in this thread before me. Designs and styles have evolved over the years. Some of the Beast Era toys are as complex as the live action movie toys. (some are uber-simple as well, but then so are movie Legends/Cyberverse etc)
Take a look at RID. Not TFPrime RID but the Car Robots line. Megatron was has 10 modes that vary in their ability to successfully look like the things they're meant to, sure, but it's at least as complicated as a lot of more recent toys. Ultra/God Magnus and Optimus Prime (and their combination into Omega Prime) are incredibly complicated, and manage to pull off their various modes whilst including electronics and looking like actual Transformers robots, something that a lot of movie-era toys don't.
There are still TFs that are made with very simple transformations, and some that are more complicated. Neither is necessarily an indication that they'll be a fun toy to play with, or look like their respective media counterpart all that much. I passed on the Animated line because I had no love for the art style, or rather the way it conflicted with my existing collection, but I can't say enough good things about how great the conversion from the cartoon models into physical transforming robots is.
For me, it's not how many steps it takes to transform a figure, but how fun it is. Some TFs I can look at and guess all the steps correctly first time, but that doesn't mean they'll be less enjoyable for me. It's sometimes fun to discover a new way of doing something in a transformation, and I do appreciate that, but its not all I look for. Cyberverse TFP Cliffjumper is a great example of a somewhat simple transformation but it's fun to do and works very well in capturing the character in both modes as well as allowing plenty of poseability. I can't ask for much more than that.
I think the only thing Bay and his films can really be credited with are bringing exposure and money to the TF franchise, and that's appreciated, because its probably the reason we've got so many of the good TFs of recent years, but the designers can and have done just as good, and just as complicated (and the two are completely different, but not mutually exclusive, ideas) before, and will do them later as well.
I think it's worth noting that the cycle of increasingly complex transformations and then the reset to quite basic ones, is likely Hasbro's way of getting new, younger fans into the toys as well as keeping the attention of those who're growing older. They hook a generation with the easy ones, that they can play with easily, and then grow the challenge in the designs more until the point where they'll either stick with the franchise as many of us have done throughout its history, or they'll move onto other stuff altogether. Then bring back the simpler style for the next generation.