First Sighting of Transformers Titans Return Ramhorn at US Retail
Friday, August 4th, 2017 8:51PM CDT
Categories: Toy News, SightingsPosted by: william-james88 Views: 17,181
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If you find Ramhorn and wish to share it with the community, please go to our sightings section and sightings forum.
Also, if anyone wants to make the front page, we are still looking for the Wave 5 Leader, Overlord, in the US.
I found 2 at the Meijer in Mason, MI.
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Posted by -Kanrabat- on August 4th, 2017 @ 8:56pm CDT
william-james88 wrote:So, just to set the record straight, there were leaks and due to what happened after, I am sure they are true. Next year's titan is predaking and he will be 5 big bots like Devastator.
But yeah, Predaking's coming
Posted by WreckerJack on August 4th, 2017 @ 9:18pm CDT
Posted by Jelze Bunnycat on August 4th, 2017 @ 9:43pm CDT
WreckerJack wrote:I really like the gold color on Ramhorn, here is to hoping that it's well made so it won't flake off or get GPS.
It's paint I think, it's the same shade of gold as the eyes. As for head comparisons, look up Legends Clouder, who's a redeco of Ramhorn.
Posted by RodimusConvoy13 on August 4th, 2017 @ 9:53pm CDT
JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:WreckerJack wrote:I really like the gold color on Ramhorn, here is to hoping that it's well made so it won't flake off or get GPS.
It's paint I think, it's the same shade of gold as the eyes. As for head comparisons, look up Legends Clouder, who's a redeco of Ramhorn.
Yes, it is paint.
Posted by Hydrargyrus on August 4th, 2017 @ 10:20pm CDT
william-james88 wrote:So, just to set the record straight, there were leaks and due to what happened after, I am sure they are true. Next year's titan is predaking and he will be 5 big bots like Devastator.
Sorry, just here from the news post.
What happened afterwards?
Posted by Jelze Bunnycat on August 4th, 2017 @ 10:40pm CDT
MagicDeath wrote:william-james88 wrote:So, just to set the record straight, there were leaks and due to what happened after, I am sure they are true. Next year's titan is predaking and he will be 5 big bots like Devastator.
Sorry, just here from the news post.
What happened afterwards?
All websites with the leaks were requested by Hasbro to take down all of the images. I don't blame them, as it shows most if not all product for 2018 for both Power of the Primes and an unknown movie line.
Posted by Sabrblade on August 4th, 2017 @ 10:48pm CDT
Though, in the case of this site, several pages upon pages of posts discussing the leaked products were deleted in addition to the news posts.JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:MagicDeath wrote:william-james88 wrote:So, just to set the record straight, there were leaks and due to what happened after, I am sure they are true. Next year's titan is predaking and he will be 5 big bots like Devastator.
Sorry, just here from the news post.
What happened afterwards?
All websites with the leaks were requested by Hasbro to take down all of the images. I don't blame them, as it shows most if not all product for 2018 for both Power of the Primes and an unknown movie line.
Posted by Jelze Bunnycat on August 4th, 2017 @ 10:52pm CDT
Sabrblade wrote:Though, in the case of this site, several pages upon pages of posts discussing the leaked products were deleted in addition to the news posts.JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:MagicDeath wrote:william-james88 wrote:So, just to set the record straight, there were leaks and due to what happened after, I am sure they are true. Next year's titan is predaking and he will be 5 big bots like Devastator.
Sorry, just here from the news post.
What happened afterwards?
All websites with the leaks were requested by Hasbro to take down all of the images. I don't blame them, as it shows most if not all product for 2018 for both Power of the Primes and an unknown movie line.
Good thing I logged the names and product codes...
Anyway, Titan Return Ramhorn! If I spot him I'll be so mad, that would mean Shuffler has been passed over in my area. Either that, or I just wasn't quick enough as I spotted his wavemate Repugnus at my local TRU... I'll still get Ramhorn tho.
Posted by william-james88 on August 4th, 2017 @ 10:57pm CDT
Sabrblade wrote:Though, in the case of this site, several pages upon pages of posts discussing the leaked products were deleted in addition to the news posts.JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:MagicDeath wrote:william-james88 wrote:So, just to set the record straight, there were leaks and due to what happened after, I am sure they are true. Next year's titan is predaking and he will be 5 big bots like Devastator.
Sorry, just here from the news post.
What happened afterwards?
All websites with the leaks were requested by Hasbro to take down all of the images. I don't blame them, as it shows most if not all product for 2018 for both Power of the Primes and an unknown movie line.
I can confirm that this happened on other sites as well. I dont think its because the conversation itself as an issue, more that it was a simple and efficient way to make sure none of the pics were left due to all the reposting. It would have taken a long time to comb through everything on multiple threads.
Posted by Hydrargyrus on August 4th, 2017 @ 11:23pm CDT
william-james88 wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Though, in the case of this site, several pages upon pages of posts discussing the leaked products were deleted in addition to the news posts.JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:MagicDeath wrote:william-james88 wrote:So, just to set the record straight, there were leaks and due to what happened after, I am sure they are true. Next year's titan is predaking and he will be 5 big bots like Devastator.
Sorry, just here from the news post.
What happened afterwards?
All websites with the leaks were requested by Hasbro to take down all of the images. I don't blame them, as it shows most if not all product for 2018 for both Power of the Primes and an unknown movie line.
I can confirm that this happened on other sites as well. I dont think its because the conversation itself as an issue, more that it was a simple and efficient way to make sure none of the pics were left due to all the reposting. It would have taken a long time to comb through everything on multiple threads.
Sounds efficient. Thanks for clarifying!
Posted by Albatross250 on August 5th, 2017 @ 5:23am CDT
Images are from Planet Iacon
TR Overlord is also available in Japan now, i wonder how remodify this thing?
Posted by Kotori_Sonoda on August 5th, 2017 @ 5:43am CDT
not too bad I guess.
Posted by Omegatron. on August 5th, 2017 @ 8:37am CDT
Albatross250 wrote:For those who have Overlord it can still use the Tank-Jet Docking sequence by Sky Shadow.
Keep in mind though that they don't connect the same way as Sky Shadow, the jet's chest-flaps just very loosely hold onto the tank. He can still do the combined super-jet mode of his original toy though, as seen in this picture from the Transformers Subreddit.
Posted by Rated X on August 5th, 2017 @ 10:09am CDT
william-james88 wrote:Guys, while i appreciate the whole memory wipe role playing we are doing, we dont have to act like nothing happened or nothing was leaked. We are still allowed to talk about it, especially if it helps fellow users plan their future purchases of these wonderful toys. I wouldnt want to give misinformation either.
So, just to set the record straight, there were leaks and due to what happened after, I am sure they are true. Next year's titan is predaking and he will be 5 big bots like Devastator.
And while some fans could probably still find those images online, all that I ask is that we dont repost them here.
But yeah, Predaking's coming
Can you guys post the actual e-mail request by hasbro on here?
Im sure everyone would love to see the actual verbiage used by hasbro. Just removing something without an official explanation in writing why its being removed is poor journalism. Its like "we were told something but we cant tell you what we were told". And im not trying to beat you guys up because TFW2005 did the exact same thing.
Hasbro f**ked up and its not the the fan sites job to play damage control. The response from hasbro should have been just as big a story as the leaks themselves.
Exactly what did hasbro refer to the images as? Did they use the term "leaks" or maybe "unauthorized images" or any other verbiage that signals they take ownership of the images? Lets see that e-mail....
Posted by Va'al on August 5th, 2017 @ 10:25am CDT
Rated X wrote:william-james88 wrote:Guys, while i appreciate the whole memory wipe role playing we are doing, we dont have to act like nothing happened or nothing was leaked. We are still allowed to talk about it, especially if it helps fellow users plan their future purchases of these wonderful toys. I wouldnt want to give misinformation either.
So, just to set the record straight, there were leaks and due to what happened after, I am sure they are true. Next year's titan is predaking and he will be 5 big bots like Devastator.
And while some fans could probably still find those images online, all that I ask is that we dont repost them here.
But yeah, Predaking's coming
Can you guys post the actual e-mail request by hasbro on here?
Im sure everyone would love to see the actual verbiage used by hasbro. Just removing something without an official explanation in writing why its being removed is poor journalism. Its like "we were told something but we cant tell you what we were told". And im not trying to beat you guys up because TFW2005 did the exact same thing.
Hasbro f**ked up and its not the the fan sites job to play damage control. The response from hasbro should have been just as big a story as the leaks themselves.
Exactly what did hasbro refer to the images as? Did they use the term "leaks" or maybe "unauthorized images" or any other verbiage that signals they take ownership of the images? Lets see that e-mail....
True fans should have unquestionable faith.
Posted by Rated X on August 5th, 2017 @ 11:05am CDT
Va'al wrote:Rated X wrote:william-james88 wrote:Guys, while i appreciate the whole memory wipe role playing we are doing, we dont have to act like nothing happened or nothing was leaked. We are still allowed to talk about it, especially if it helps fellow users plan their future purchases of these wonderful toys. I wouldnt want to give misinformation either.
So, just to set the record straight, there were leaks and due to what happened after, I am sure they are true. Next year's titan is predaking and he will be 5 big bots like Devastator.
And while some fans could probably still find those images online, all that I ask is that we dont repost them here.
But yeah, Predaking's coming
Can you guys post the actual e-mail request by hasbro on here?
Im sure everyone would love to see the actual verbiage used by hasbro. Just removing something without an official explanation in writing why its being removed is poor journalism. Its like "we were told something but we cant tell you what we were told". And im not trying to beat you guys up because TFW2005 did the exact same thing.
Hasbro f**ked up and its not the the fan sites job to play damage control. The response from hasbro should have been just as big a story as the leaks themselves.
Exactly what did hasbro refer to the images as? Did they use the term "leaks" or maybe "unauthorized images" or any other verbiage that signals they take ownership of the images? Lets see that e-mail....
True fans should have unquestionable faith.
I have plenty of faith in Hasbro. But my faith in fan sites decision making ability has really taken a beating.
Posted by mordhelm on August 5th, 2017 @ 11:15am CDT
If you read any auto journalism sites, you would see that even more. Website XYZ posts a big story about leaked footage of new car by company ABC. Company ABC asks them to take things down. Website XYZ refuses or makes a huge fuss in another article about. Company ABC blacklists Website XYZ from first drive and press events.
For what it is worth, the above did happen. It happened a LOT to Jalopnik among other sites. Most car companies refused to show them anything because of it.
As the old adage goes: Don't crap where you eat.
Posted by Va'al on August 5th, 2017 @ 11:22am CDT
Rated X wrote:Va'al wrote:Rated X wrote:william-james88 wrote:Guys, while i appreciate the whole memory wipe role playing we are doing, we dont have to act like nothing happened or nothing was leaked. We are still allowed to talk about it, especially if it helps fellow users plan their future purchases of these wonderful toys. I wouldnt want to give misinformation either.
So, just to set the record straight, there were leaks and due to what happened after, I am sure they are true. Next year's titan is predaking and he will be 5 big bots like Devastator.
And while some fans could probably still find those images online, all that I ask is that we dont repost them here.
But yeah, Predaking's coming
Can you guys post the actual e-mail request by hasbro on here?
Im sure everyone would love to see the actual verbiage used by hasbro. Just removing something without an official explanation in writing why its being removed is poor journalism. Its like "we were told something but we cant tell you what we were told". And im not trying to beat you guys up because TFW2005 did the exact same thing.
Hasbro f**ked up and its not the the fan sites job to play damage control. The response from hasbro should have been just as big a story as the leaks themselves.
Exactly what did hasbro refer to the images as? Did they use the term "leaks" or maybe "unauthorized images" or any other verbiage that signals they take ownership of the images? Lets see that e-mail....
True fans should have unquestionable faith.
I have plenty of faith in Hasbro. But my faith in fan sites decision making ability has really taken a beating.
Sorry to hear that, big boy. Want me to kiss it better?
Posted by Hydrargyrus on August 5th, 2017 @ 11:27am CDT
mordhelm wrote:Don't crap where you eat.
Excellent!
Hasbro asked us a favor, we oblidged. Nothing wrong with that.
That's my two cents; don't expect me to come back and argue.
Posted by Va'al on August 5th, 2017 @ 11:29am CDT
MagicDeath wrote:mordhelm wrote:Don't crap where you eat.
Excellent!
Hasbro asked us a favor, we oblidged. Nothing wrong with that.
That's my two cents; don't expect me to come back and argue.
Added note, in between me not taking certain users seriously: that's exactly what was asked for - a favour. And everything was handled by the site owner, staff only posted the news when it first broke. All removal and communication and moving things around was Seibertron, dealing with his business as he saw fit.
Thanks for understanding!
Posted by RAR on August 5th, 2017 @ 3:40pm CDT
https://www.minds.com/newsfeed/740683557449506816
Posted by mordhelm on August 5th, 2017 @ 6:42pm CDT
Posted by Flashwave on August 5th, 2017 @ 6:44pm CDT
Va'al wrote:MagicDeath wrote:mordhelm wrote:Don't crap where you eat.
Excellent!
Hasbro asked us a favor, we oblidged. Nothing wrong with that.
That's my two cents; don't expect me to come back and argue.
Added note, in between me not taking certain users seriously: that's exactly what was asked for - a favour. And everything was handled by the site owner, staff only posted the news when it first broke. All removal and communication and moving things around was Seibertron, dealing with his business as he saw fit.
Thanks for understanding!
Honestly: this is the first I knew of a Takedown request. I was just being judicious with my grains of salt. We have heard the Predaking claim for a while now
Posted by RAR on August 6th, 2017 @ 12:51am CDT
mordhelm wrote:The Arcee sett is $25. Very reasonable for an exclusive with an extra headmaster that is diecast
OK
No idea where I got the impression it was $50.00 from then.
Posted by DestronMirage22 on August 6th, 2017 @ 9:19am CDT
Posted by mordhelm on August 6th, 2017 @ 10:35am CDT
RAR wrote:mordhelm wrote:The Arcee sett is $25. Very reasonable for an exclusive with an extra headmaster that is diecast
OK
No idea where I got the impression it was $50.00 from then.
Maybe just confusing it and the usb optimus prime charger?
I checked again and the press releases are saying 30 for "early access" of arcee. Cannot find the article that said 25 anymore. But definitely not 50.
Posted by Rated X on August 6th, 2017 @ 11:12am CDT
Va'al wrote:Rated X wrote:Va'al wrote:Rated X wrote:william-james88 wrote:Guys, while i appreciate the whole memory wipe role playing we are doing, we dont have to act like nothing happened or nothing was leaked. We are still allowed to talk about it, especially if it helps fellow users plan their future purchases of these wonderful toys. I wouldnt want to give misinformation either.
So, just to set the record straight, there were leaks and due to what happened after, I am sure they are true. Next year's titan is predaking and he will be 5 big bots like Devastator.
And while some fans could probably still find those images online, all that I ask is that we dont repost them here.
But yeah, Predaking's coming
Can you guys post the actual e-mail request by hasbro on here?
Im sure everyone would love to see the actual verbiage used by hasbro. Just removing something without an official explanation in writing why its being removed is poor journalism. Its like "we were told something but we cant tell you what we were told". And im not trying to beat you guys up because TFW2005 did the exact same thing.
Hasbro f**ked up and its not the the fan sites job to play damage control. The response from hasbro should have been just as big a story as the leaks themselves.
Exactly what did hasbro refer to the images as? Did they use the term "leaks" or maybe "unauthorized images" or any other verbiage that signals they take ownership of the images? Lets see that e-mail....
True fans should have unquestionable faith.
I have plenty of faith in Hasbro. But my faith in fan sites decision making ability has really taken a beating.
Sorry to hear that, big boy. Want me to kiss it better?
Dude that's getting a little creepy, ya think?
Posted by Stuartmaximus on August 6th, 2017 @ 11:52am CDT
Albatross250 wrote:TR Overlord is also available in Japan now, i wonder how remodify this thing?
Omegatron. wrote:
cough***Sky Garry***cough
Posted by Overcracker on August 6th, 2017 @ 12:17pm CDT
Stuartmaximus wrote:Albatross250 wrote:TR Overlord is also available in Japan now, i wonder how remodify this thing?Omegatron. wrote:
cough***Sky Garry***cough
Where? Not seeing how they could get Sky Garry out of overlord at all.
Posted by Sabrblade on August 6th, 2017 @ 1:49pm CDT
That's pretty much what the consensus is.DestronMirage22 wrote:So, did we ever find out what was going on with those Chromedome's with the Takara heads? Was it just an extremely awesome factory error?
Posted by Jelze Bunnycat on August 6th, 2017 @ 1:58pm CDT
Sabrblade wrote:That's pretty much what the consensus is.DestronMirage22 wrote:So, did we ever find out what was going on with those Chromedome's with the Takara heads? Was it just an extremely awesome factory error?
No official statements though.
Posted by Kurona on August 6th, 2017 @ 1:59pm CDT
Posted by Autobot N on August 6th, 2017 @ 1:59pm CDT
He's good. Not the worst figure in the line, but not the best either.Kurona wrote:So after reading through Marvel UK, I'm surprised to find that one of the handful of Cybertronians I liked in particular was Highbrow. Is the consensus still that his TR toy is basically okay?
Posted by Sigma Magnus on August 6th, 2017 @ 2:03pm CDT
Kurona wrote:So after reading through Marvel UK, I'm surprised to find that one of the handful of Cybertronians I liked in particular was Highbrow. Is the consensus still that his TR toy is basically okay?
Head socket works better when you flip the Titan Master's face forwards (on my copy, anyway). Be careful with the rotor blades, and you might have to heat the plastic and bend them to get them straight. It can be tough to get him to look right in a normal standing pose, but once you get him in an action pose he's great. Copter mode is awesome too.
Posted by Kurona on August 6th, 2017 @ 2:09pm CDT
Posted by RAR on August 6th, 2017 @ 2:32pm CDT
He's certainly close enough to Diatlus to not bother making a new mould. - but I guess he also might be something they'd consider making out of the rumoured POTP StarSaber too.
Posted by Sabrblade on August 6th, 2017 @ 2:45pm CDT
Black Shadow/Sky Shadow would make for a better Dai Atlas than Overlord. They could even reuse Black/Sky Shadow's helmet, even.RAR wrote:Overlord scream Diatlus to me - heck add in the POTP gimic and a drill nose and he'd be a pretty decent approximation - ideally something to do in 2019/2020 once POTP is mostly done and they are doing a year of more or less straight Generations stuff - if they decide to take pity on Micromaster fans around then - that would be the time for Diatlus and Metro Titan perhaps if they have some Micromasters around to make them theme specific.
He's certainly close enough to Diatlus to not bother making a new mould. - but I guess he also might be something they'd consider making out of the rumoured POTP StarSaber too.
Posted by Flashwave on August 6th, 2017 @ 5:18pm CDT
Posted by mordhelm on August 6th, 2017 @ 6:03pm CDT
Posted by Agamemnon on August 6th, 2017 @ 9:29pm CDT
Kurona wrote:Hey, so, anyone got a picture of Ramhorn and Shuffler's Titan Masters? I wanna see how much - if at all - they look like each other. Hasbro frustratingly doesn't provide Titan Master CG renders for the actual Titan Master class.
I don't think anyone answered this question for you, Kurona. I will see about taking some pics tomorrow, if I can. But, I can tell you, now that I have both Ramhorn and Shuffler, that the TM bodies are identical. They have different faces on the back, and the tiny TM heads are different, and different colors, of course. Shuffler has purple arms and head on a grey body. Ramhorn is all one color. But the body molding is identical.
Posted by Albatross250 on August 7th, 2017 @ 4:47am CDT
Posted by Kurona on August 7th, 2017 @ 4:56am CDT
Agamemnon wrote:Kurona wrote:Hey, so, anyone got a picture of Ramhorn and Shuffler's Titan Masters? I wanna see how much - if at all - they look like each other. Hasbro frustratingly doesn't provide Titan Master CG renders for the actual Titan Master class.
I don't think anyone answered this question for you, Kurona. I will see about taking some pics tomorrow, if I can. But, I can tell you, now that I have both Ramhorn and Shuffler, that the TM bodies are identical. They have different faces on the back, and the tiny TM heads are different, and different colors, of course. Shuffler has purple arms and head on a grey body. Ramhorn is all one color. But the body molding is identical.
Thank you I was mostly wanting to see if Ramhorn still had the elephant head.
Posted by william-james88 on August 7th, 2017 @ 7:44am CDT
Kurona wrote:So after reading through Marvel UK, I'm surprised to find that one of the handful of Cybertronians I liked in particular was Highbrow. Is the consensus still that his TR toy is basically okay?
I have 0 problems with that toy, I think its a great additio to the line
Posted by RodimusConvoy13 on August 7th, 2017 @ 9:21am CDT
Kurona wrote:Agamemnon wrote:Kurona wrote:Hey, so, anyone got a picture of Ramhorn and Shuffler's Titan Masters? I wanna see how much - if at all - they look like each other. Hasbro frustratingly doesn't provide Titan Master CG renders for the actual Titan Master class.
I don't think anyone answered this question for you, Kurona. I will see about taking some pics tomorrow, if I can. But, I can tell you, now that I have both Ramhorn and Shuffler, that the TM bodies are identical. They have different faces on the back, and the tiny TM heads are different, and different colors, of course. Shuffler has purple arms and head on a grey body. Ramhorn is all one color. But the body molding is identical.
Thank you I was mostly wanting to see if Ramhorn still had the elephant head.
He doesn't. He has a different head.
Posted by william-james88 on August 7th, 2017 @ 9:26am CDT
Posted by Kurona on August 7th, 2017 @ 10:23am CDT
Posted by Flashwave on August 7th, 2017 @ 12:28pm CDT
william-james88 wrote:Kurona wrote:So after reading through Marvel UK, I'm surprised to find that one of the handful of Cybertronians I liked in particular was Highbrow. Is the consensus still that his TR toy is basically okay?
I have 0 problems with that toy, I think its a great additio to the line
I for one love helicopter dropships like the Osprey and such, so I was excited most about Highbrow
The "Problem" if you will is the same "Problem" most G1 Redux figures have. Everyone is excited about the nostalgia of their favorite figures with posability, but then when they get them they feel underwhelmed by the "Puzzle" factor. These toys are in their way "puzzles". With Highbrow, the only part that takes really any thought is jiggering his legs. Otherwise, its just flip the cockpit back, plug his head in, and spread the arms. He does a good job of hiding his extremeties, bit the wow of transforming him isnt there. If that makes any sense.
Now me, asmuch as I love him, part of me wishes we'd gotten a more updated look. Something closer to 2007's Incinerator Osprey. I know thats a figure no one cares about, but a modern Osprey esque Highbrow woukd make me happy.
Posted by RAR on August 7th, 2017 @ 2:32pm CDT
In general though I don't like toys so over-complex they become a chore to Transform.
Posted by Wolfman Jake on August 7th, 2017 @ 2:58pm CDT
RAR wrote:In general though I don't like toys so over-complex they become a chore to Transform.
This is how I feel too about the general downward shift in complexity starting with Dark of the Moon. I like being able to play with my figures several at a time, converting large groups from one mode to the other, rather than struggling with one or two figures for 10 to 20 minutes each, trying desperately to remember some little step or trick to get something to align correctly (I don't like having to use the instructions. It takes away from the "challenge" of the puzzle.) I do still appreciate harder transformation schemes, though, but I get that through Masterpiece figures instead of the mass retail stuff in the Generations line.
Posted by -Kanrabat- on August 7th, 2017 @ 5:23pm CDT
Wolfman Jake wrote:RAR wrote:In general though I don't like toys so over-complex they become a chore to Transform.
This is how I feel too about the general downward shift in complexity starting with Dark of the Moon. I like being able to play with my figures several at a time, converting large groups from one mode to the other, rather than struggling with one or two figures for 10 to 20 minutes each, trying desperately to remember some little step or trick to get something to align correctly (I don't like having to use the instructions. It takes away from the "challenge" of the puzzle.) I do still appreciate harder transformation schemes, though, but I get that through Masterpiece figures instead of the mass retail stuff in the Generations line.
For me, Titan Return does the job just right. Not too simple to be stupid, but not too hard to remove all the fun. They are JUST RIGHT.
I threw out a lot of my transformers at my local geek store to buy some sweet G1. Most of those that I got rid of were either because I was bored with them or I found them just NOT fun. I got rid of a few ROTF figures and ALL of my Alternity. I want to have FUN with my figures.
Transforming G1 figures is so simple, but oh so FUN and SATISFYING. I really LOVE the feel of the original Headmasters. So much that this Friday, I'm getting myself G1 Mindwipe and Hardhead. Then I'll display them among their TR updates like the rest of them:
Still, I did kept all the ROTF constructicons. Those are overly complicated, sure, but I DO need a challenge from times to times. Beside, those bot modes are WEIRD and worth keeping.