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Banjo-Tron wrote:I would just like to point out that I am not missing any 'point', I just have a different opinion about what constitutes equality. It's a bit sneakily disparaging to basically say that people who don't see things the same way as you don't 'get it' Va'al. Naughty Va'al

Nope. We agree on what constitutes equality, obviously. (I'd be surprised if there were multiple interpretations of 'equal', other than the Orwellian one.)

I disagree with you on the fact that we are not there yet. And that is the point you and others are not getting. I'm not saying that you disagree with me therefore you're wrong, I'm pointing out that you seem to think there is no inequality at play a) in society, b) in the comics industry, c) in the Transformers franchise.

And that is just not true. Examples of diversity gaps below.



London Review of Book inequality in contributors and reviewed works: http://forbookssake.net/2013/06/24/find ... -of-books/

Women in comics in December 2013 and year review: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/02/28/ ... in-review/

DC


Marvel

Again, please don't tell me I'm not getting your point. I understand where you are coming from, I also disagree. Statistics can be interpreted in many ways, and I prefer natural change over enforced change. On the Oscars front for example, how many people of colour would win an award in order to feel that they were adequately represented in your opinion? Would you extrapolate say, the national percentage and then only be happy if that was reflected? What if it was exceeded? Does that mean that white people are under-represented? Or should we start pushing people into positions above others because they have the 'correct' race or gender? Does that really help anyone or anything? Talent, effort and attainment sidelined in order to push other agendas?

Maybe where you're from things are more fractured, but where I live almost half of my direct reports, and the workforce as a whole are women. Ethnically, I am actually in the minority when it comes to my team. Should I try to redress that balance by hiring more white people, or should I only care about what is in their CV and how they come across in an interview? Anyway, I'm glad that you are passionate and hold and rigorously defend your viewpoints, I only ask that you do not tell me that I disagree with you because I 'don't get' what you are saying

Va'al wrote:

Banjo-Tron wrote:I would just like to point out that I am not missing any 'point', I just have a different opinion about what constitutes equality. It's a bit sneakily disparaging to basically say that people who don't see things the same way as you don't 'get it' Va'al. Naughty Va'al

Nope. We agree on what constitutes equality, obviously. (I'd be surprised if there were multiple interpretations of 'equal', other than the Orwellian one.)

I disagree with you on the fact that we are not there yet. And that is the point you and others are not getting. I'm not saying that you disagree with me therefore you're wrong, I'm pointing out that you seem to think there is no inequality at play a) in society, b) in the comics industry, c) in the Transformers franchise.

And that is just not true. Examples of diversity gaps below.



London Review of Book inequality in contributors and reviewed works: http://forbookssake.net/2013/06/24/find ... -of-books/

Women in comics in December 2013 and year review: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/02/28/ ... in-review/

DC


Marvel

It is utterly pointless to point out the low number of women who work at DC and Marvel, other than the numbers of women who left due to not being happy about the direction the publisher wanted to go with their books, like Batwoman.

The times of Marvel and DC seeking out fresh new talent are long gone, if you want to work at either company you have to be invited. Both will make you an offer if they feel that the work you've done is good enough or right for them. And with that I mean you have to already work in the field and get noticed, either by working at indi comic labels, self publishing or webcomics.
If you go to them and tell them you want to work with them and even give them a treatment, they'll send you home, and if you're unlucky black list you.

So the only way to actually increase the number of female creators at the big two, is by having the indi scene and smaller publishers publish much more work by female creators, and have those works be popular and successful.
And there just aren't that many female creators in the comics business at the moment, the area that I would say is actually dominated by female creators is webcomics. Sure there are again mostly males, but the stuff by female creators is usually the best. Sure, there are loads of female webcomic creators who create crap, but from all the webcomics I've read and still read, the ones created by females outnumber the male created ones, simply by being better.
Then again, that might be because most of the good male creators then go on to be picked up by a publisher.

So yea, that number chart may look interesting at first, but it's a waste of time.

Banjo-Tron wrote:I only ask that you do not tell me that I disagree with you because I 'don't get' what you are saying

I'm not sure I 'get' (heh) what you're saying. You do disagree, and it seems to me that you do not 'get' the fact that pointing out that this (all-women creator team) is an important issue to raise, especially in the history of the Transformers franchise. And by 'get it' I mean acknowledge, accept and stand behind it.

By that definition, you don't 'get' the significance of pointing out that two women are actively contributing to the comics, as creators, for the first time ever in 30 years. You acknowledge it. But you do not share it.

You don't think it is necessary, I do.

And I think you're wrong, obviously, or I wouldn't be discussing this with you.

[As for positive discrimination, it's a potentially useful tool, if used in the right way. A lot of the reasons that prevent 'minorities' from applying for positions of power, jobs, creativity are not to do with their merits, but with the fact that their merits are downplayed - even by themselves - because of their diversity background. Would I hypothetically hire a woman over a man even if slightly less qualified? Yes. Would I do the same if the skills and knowledge gap were severely different? No. It's not about 'correctness', it's about creating a more diverse environment in which equality - the one you wrote about earlier, where the differences do not need to be acknowledged - can thrive.]

Dead Metal wrote:It is utterly pointless to point out the low number of women who work at DC and Marvel

It is never utterly pointless to point out that there is a lack of diversity in any field, ever.

The time for fresh talent is over? So we just accept it as a fact, and do nothing to challenge it?

There are plenty of women creators in the comics business. We need to acknowledge their existence, say what we think about them, be it good or bad. And what the movement with Scott and Stone on the Windblade comic is doing, is just that: visibility.

Sooo that's the third time you've said I don't 'get' it, I'll leave this discussion to the adults...

I'm done

Banjo-Tron wrote:Sooo that's the third time you've said I don't 'get' it, I'll leave this discussion to the adults...

I'm done

Please explain to me what is so disparaging about saying that you don't acknowledge, accept and stand behind my point.

As I read it, that is exactly what you said:

- You acknowledge the point.
- You disagree with it.
- You do not accept it.
- You do not stand by it.

Va'al wrote:The time for fresh talent is over? So we just accept it as a fact, and do nothing to challenge it?

I think DC proved that the time for fresh talent is over when they held an open competition for artists to draw Harley Quinn and then chose the winner from their own artist pool.

But then again, this is DC, they rejected the awesomeness of Rob Liefeld.

And I DARE any female artists to draw man-boobs as awesome as Rob.

I am anxiously waiting to read the mini series. I hope its good. Breaking out of the Optimus,versus Megatron mold is a good thing for the brand, and expanding on gender in the Transformers universe is a welcome ( albeit late ) change.

I understand women have been victims of patriarchal society for years, but I don't think pointing out that the first all-female creative team is a major event actually helps the cause of feminism... I feel it detracts from the overall goal of equality by trying to paint this as significant. This should be commonplace. It should be mundane. Scott and Stone should be recognized as the right creative team for the series entirely because of their merit, rather than their gender.

To stay on my soapbox a while longer, my earlier remarks about gender not mattering in regards to writing TF fiction must be retracted. Windblade is a female character. I'm not a fan of Cybertronians having sexual characteristics at all, but I can't entirely separate the human element of the creator from the alien element of the character, much as I'd like to.

Because gender has been introduced into the IDW-verse, the gender of the author can be relevant, I suppose, but I've yet to see any interesting use of gender roles or sexual politics in TF fiction and... don't want to, really. The only Transformer romance that has held my interest at all is Chromedome/Rewind, because it is well written. I don't think of either character as having gender, because they're robots without any well known human sexual characteristics. It's certainly preferable to G1 Arcee fawning over every lead character in every G1 cartoon.


Now, back to the Windblade mini: I think most of the fandom's made up their mind on whether they like the character or not. Even if it isn't the fan-created figure I personally voted for, I accept it as the will of the majority vote. I'm perfectly okay with a comic designed to shill the new character. I think introducing gender into the TF universe in some new way is fine as a plot point but hope to Primus it doesn't lead to new romances.

And we have certainly seen evidence of romantic possibilities in Scott's works, such as Stronger, Faster introducing the Airachnid/Breakdown possibility and the bit of Ratchet flirting with Arcee, but I have no idea whether that was her idea or a Hasbro/showrunner mandate, so I'll just politely ignore it. She is certainly capable of subtly, as showing Chromia in the Beast Hunters comics as concerned and nurturing rather than romantic, so she gets a pass.

I'm not fond of Stone's art style. But it is very distinct and fits the Windblade design better than James Raiz's interpretation, in my humble opinion.

And the plot is apparently about a newbie trying to fit in on a Cybertron ruled by Starscream and screwing up his regime and fighting against his response, so at least there's something in there I like.


In short: gender should be less important than merit, but it isn't in this world and we've let it derail this thread about the Windblade mini, which you may or may not like for whatever reason. I think as a general rule of thumb we fans support the notions of equality, and should be able to discuss the comics regardless of who's writing or drawing them without being bogged down into a debate like this. Let it be released, and then, presumably sometime in the future, we'll see other all female creative teams on one comic or toy or show and it'll be as normal and familiar as the creative teams we're used to now.

Va'al wrote:

Dead Metal wrote:It is utterly pointless to point out the low number of women who work at DC and Marvel

It is never utterly pointless to point out that there is a lack of diversity in any field, ever.

The time for fresh talent is over? So we just accept it as a fact, and do nothing to challenge it?

There are plenty of women creators in the comics business. We need to acknowledge their existence, say what we think about them, be it good or bad. And what the movement with Scott and Stone on the Windblade comic is doing, is just that: visibility.

No, did you even read what I posted or did you start the first sentence, get offended and then reply?

Taking something out of context, and ignoring the rest does not make it untrue, it does not work with evolution, nor does it here.

The times of Marvel and DC looking for fresh talent is over. That does not mean that the time for fresh talent in comics is over, that means that Marvel and DC no-longer seek-out fresh new talent or let people apply to work with them.
They check the market and pick out the creators that seem to be the most popular and successful and thus most profitable.

So when they employ someone, it's based on hos much money they can make with them, it has nothing to do with what gender or sexuality they have. If the stuff they make is popular or seems to have potential, they'll invite them to work with them.

So yes, to look at Marvel and DC and blame them for the low number of female comic creators is utterly pointless.

I did read the rest, and I'm not offended, at all!

I hope it's coming across that I'm just trying to have a discussion, not argue for the sake of arguing.


I am not saying that DC and Marvel are to blame, those graphs are examples of some of the available material showing the gender gap. They are, though, the biggest names in the market, and the ones that most comics readers will associate with the industry. But they are symptomatic of what is currently the case.

As the other links I posted above show, yes, there are women creators - but they're not visible. As I advocate for colourist, letterer, editor, translator's rights in terms of recognition on publications, I advocate for another unsung portion of the creative force behind the industry.

As I said, DC and Marvel are not solely at fault for the disparity, nor is IDW, or Image, or Boom! Studios, or Dark Horse, or Titan, or Jonathan Cape, or Self Made Hero, or Penguin Books. But they can do more to make sure that the equality that we all clearly appear to be wanting or asking for is achieved. And I do believe that it can be done by positively discriminating towards the so far minorities: acknowledge when something new is happening, make sure people realise it's new -- then move on, once it's finally become the norm.

And this is where I disagree with points like Henry's above (while I get the sentiment, obviously). We do need to get into these debates. We do need graphs that show some numbers. We do need to talk about how many women writers are writing. Because it's not the norm, and it should be.

Va'al wrote:I did read the rest, and I'm not offended, at all!

I hope it's coming across that I'm just trying to have a discussion, not argue for the sake of arguing.


I am not saying that DC and Marvel are to blame, those graphs are examples of some of the available material showing the gender gap. They are, though, the biggest names in the market, and the ones that most comics readers will associate with the industry. But they are symptomatic of what is currently the case.

As the other links I posted above show, yes, there are women creators - but they're not visible. As I advocate for colourist, letterer, editor, translator's rights in terms of recognition on publications, I advocate for another unsung portion of the creative force behind the industry.

As I said, DC and Marvel are not solely at fault for the disparity, nor is IDW, or Image, or Boom! Studios, or Dark Horse, or Titan, or Jonathan Cape, or Self Made Hero, or Penguin Books. But they can do more to make sure that the equality that we all clearly appear to be wanting or asking for is achieved. And I do believe that it can be done by positively discriminating towards the so far minorities: acknowledge when something new is happening, make sure people realise it's new -- then move on, once it's finally become the norm.

And this is where I disagree with points like Henry's above (while I get the sentiment, obviously). We do need to get into these debates. We do need graphs that show some numbers. We do need to talk about how many women writers are writing. Because it's not the norm, and it should be.

The graphs are still pointless, they would make more sense if they where accompanied by a graph showing how many women are active in the comic industry and then compare those three graphs.
On their own they're just used as finger pointing and only serve to exaggerate the extent of the issue.

Using them is like stating global warming is BS and proving it by pointing out that winter is still colder than summer.

I also don't get why you had to only focus on the beginning of the sentence, take that out of context, ignore the rest of the post which explains the point, and then rant about something I did not actually say just to have a discussion.

I don't want that kind of discussion, I'm for equality, and I don't care who makes my comics as long as they're good. In fact it's only a pretty recent development for me to actually care enough about the writers to actually learn their names and check what else they've written.

I don't appreciate being pointed at and made out to somehow be against equality just because I'm not extreme about it enough and don't have a weird self-hate for being born with a penis. That's not just you, but more a broad complaint for a phenomenon I've been seeing more often recently.

Dead Metal wrote:The graphs are still pointless, they would make more sense if they where accompanied by a graph showing how many women are active in the comic industry and then compare those three graphs.
On their own they're just used as finger pointing and only serve to exaggerate the extent of the issue.

Using them is like stating global warming is BS and proving it by pointing out that winter is still colder than summer.

I also don't get why you had to only focus on the beginning of the sentence, take that out of context, ignore the rest of the post which explains the point, and then rant about something I did not actually say just to have a discussion.

I don't want that kind of discussion, I'm for equality, and I don't care who makes my comics as long as they're good. In fact it's only a pretty recent development for me to actually care enough about the writers to actually learn their names and check what else they've written.

I don't appreciate being pointed at and made out to somehow be against equality just because I'm not extreme about it enough and don't have a weird self-hate for being born with a penis. That's not just you, but more a broad complaint for a phenomenon I've been seeing more often recently.

You Dead Metal, you deserve the matrix of leadership, and the internet.

Thanks to IDW's Chris Ryall we have a sneak peek at the first page of their upcoming Transformers: Windblade mini-series. The series takes place in the aftermath of the Dark Cybertron event and focuses on Hasbro's Fan Built Bot poll character Windblade, written by Mairghread Scott and drawn by Sarah Stone. Check out the first page mirrored below:

Some proof that Sarah Stone (‏@fayren)’s Windblade is gonna be beautiful series. Issue one page one art and colors by Stone.

That... That... That... That... (*slaps face*) That has to be the single most beautiful piece of Transformers artwork ever produced in the whole span of all 30 years from 1984 to today! Sarah Stone should be given a slaggin' medal for just that art piece alone! Why, make her become the official permanent artist for all things Transformers from here on out and we'll likely never have to worry about bad artwork ever again!

Sabrblade wrote::shock: That... That... That... That... (*slaps face*) That has to be the single most beautiful piece of Transformers artwork ever produced in the whole span of all 30 years from 1984 to today! Sarah Stone should be given a slaggin' medal for just that art piece alone! Why, make her become the official permanent artist for all things Transformers from here on out and we'll likely never have to worry about bad artwork ever again!

Are you being sarcastic, based on what's been said before on this thread?

I do really like it though, reminds me of Möbius for some reason. Looking good.

Banjo-Tron wrote:

Sabrblade wrote::shock: That... That... That... That... (*slaps face*) That has to be the single most beautiful piece of Transformers artwork ever produced in the whole span of all 30 years from 1984 to today! Sarah Stone should be given a slaggin' medal for just that art piece alone! Why, make her become the official permanent artist for all things Transformers from here on out and we'll likely never have to worry about bad artwork ever again!

Are you being sarcastic, based on what's been said before on this thread?

I do really like it though, reminds me of Möbius for some reason. Looking good.

Does this look like I'm sarcastic?



This artwork is drop. Dead! GORGEOUS! I cannot praise any further since no amount of praise could even begin to hope to do it justice!

I'm with Sabrblade on this one. Artwork is goddamn gorgeous!

Wallpaper. NOW.

I wish the actual toy's jet mode looked like that, with all the red and "face paint." Though looking at the toy again it does look like the VTOLs can actually swivel down like that, which is really awesome.

That is a beautiful page, the colours just pop and I love the transformation scene starting in the top establishing panel, crossing over from the panel into the negative space, moving between negative space and the border-less panel and then ending in the border-less panel.

I love it and it shows that someone knows her page layout and shots.

El Duque wrote:

That is gorgeous! Some of the best, most fluid Transformer art I have ever seen. Looking forward to this book.

I really Realy like the artwork for this, as it goes against the other styles present in the ongoing series. The one thing honestly though is it feels a bit odd, like game concept art, at least in the first panel of the skyline.

Hot damn, that is some beautiful artwork! While I don't want to lose the Roche/Milne combo (and man do I miss E.J. Su), I'd love to see Sarah Stone guest in the main series.

Looks good. Still don't like the face.

This is the first time ever in Transformers history that we have a female Autobot that can convert to a jet. (Beast Wars Metals Airazor doesn't count.) Awesome. I'm looking forward to this comic and character. This artwork is very powerful.