Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

[Wolfman Jake]

Yikes, there are a LOT of strong opinions on this. Let's try to remember a few things about design philosophy behind these figures. Transformers "Classics" was established in 2006 as a line of THE G1 CHARACTERS updated with modern alt modes and paint schemes that are evocative of their portrayals from the original line. Universe 2008 and Generations plus all of its sublines have carried on this philosophy. Hasbro usually takes the initiative on doing original "toy accurate" deco homages for their releases, with Takara preferring to do updates on "cartoon accurate" decos, though a few cases of hybridized looks, or comic book looks, or whatever come through with either company. Saying that Combiner War releases aren't the G1 characters is silly. They are. As much as alt modes are modernized, deco's tweaked, etc., they mostly retain enough similarity to their original G1 presentations, enough so that Hasbro is releasing at least two combiner sets in their original G2 colors as well. Hasbro is content to create new toys for old characters that skew closer to how the toys looked, which is their "definitive look," or making updates where needed or just for some fun or variety. Takara Tomy takes these designs and ups the homage factor for their "definitive look" for the characters, the original cartoon. That's just as valid a choice. And collectors get a choice. If you like the Takara Superion and the Hasbro Menasor, good for you! That doesn't making people who want a consistent "cartoon accurate" Classics collection want an "uglier/plainer/old/whatever" deco for their tribute to their G1 Transformers memories. Just as people who prefer to go with Hasbro for all their Classics needs aren't just being "cheap" or aren't honoring G1 or some such. Let's all give each other some space. I am looking forward to Takara's Menasor, despite the plainer looking paint jobs and the black shoulders on Dragstrip. I actually think that's a clever little nod to a neat facet of the G1 toy and cartoon character model that didn't get translated into plastic form this time around. It didn't have to be there, but it is, and I appreciate it for the intent. It also does break up the "solid yellow" just a bit.

[Hellscream9999]

For the record though, I do want that deluxe Groove and the Space Shuttle Blastoff. However it's not because they're accurate to anything but because I want as many alternate limb bots as I can get. I love mixing the limbs up on my combiners and the more limbs I have, the more I can do.

That is my very same viewpoint 100%

This.

I do think that since both bigroove and blastoff are still in the 'design' phase, and since hasbro said we would see new molds next year, that these two might make their way over here next year as the two 'extra' limbs, akin to quickslinger and neck-brace this year.

[Desslok2201]

I'm amazed after reading the previous comments, as well as some others over the past months, about the amount of venom and bile heaped on X lately. I know the guy's a little rough around the edges, but he does occasionally make a valid point. Because he says it though, the baby goes out with the bath water and it turns into a sanctioned X stomping match.

[munkimus prime]

I'm going to buy the Takara Bruticus so I can give the new Blast-Off head to the Hasbro version lol.

[william-james88]

As I said earlier, I believe the hasbro decos exist only as an excuse to justify takaras existance to come and save tbe day for G1 fans willing to pay a sometimes higher price. I say "sometimes" because this is not the place to start an Amiami vs. BBTS price debate. Bottom line is takara costs more through MOST outlets regardless of whos inflating the prices.

Oh not this shìt again.

I have to stop reading things at work on my breaks because sometimes I read a reply like this that just cracks me up and then everyone looks at me funny. X, what you are writing smells like a conspiracy theory. But since the higher cost is just to import that would mean that the person who gains the most from fans needing to buy the Takara versions is the Japanese post office. Reread what you wrote and tell me how that doesnt mean that you believe Hasbro's deco exists for the greed of the Japanese postal office, because that is what you are insinuating without knowing. And in terms of importing in bulk, which is what BBTS does, the US government is the one who charges (and profits from)those importing fees. So yeah, like any good conspiracy theory, Hasbro's deco is controlled by the government. While this sounds insane (which it is), that is what your writing comes across as saying in terms of costs and deco preference.

But seriously guys, I dont get what I so hard to understand, it's not like importing vs buying locally only happens with TFs. Do we say "damn you Vietnam" because dragon fruit doesnt grow locally and we are thus forced to import it if we want to eat it. And we are fully conscious that they dont pay the same amount for it since they can grow it in their back yard. The truth is there is no debate and no issue. The deal with Takara vs Hasbro (or BBTS vs Amiami which is a totally irrelevant thing to write)is just importing vs buying locally. That happens with eveything else, its not an isolated issue that only TFs have. You find it with dvds that were only released in Japan (like that Kill Bill version with the colored fight sequence), or DS games that are only found in Japan (like the latest Ace Attourney with Miles Edgeworth), or CDs from KPop bands my wife listens to. Those things arent distributed locally so we are stuck importing them. And depending on where you live, the cost will change. But there is no debate, the retail price in Japan is the price of the toy/object/collectable. Everything else is cost one chooses to pay. So here is the deal: TF toys distributed in Japan are priced the same as TF toys in the US, end of story. And this is crucial because while it can be true that one may cost more for some people (like Hasbro figures costing more to a Japan based collector rather than an American), saying that Takara is asking more for their products is FALSE and makes anyone who says this look like they have no clue about this hobby, or simple economics (I am not directing this to anyone in particular but as a word of caution to anyone who is ill informed).

So there is no debate. It's just the rules of international trade and it is the same thing that happens with any product that isn't distributed locally, whatever your "locally" is. The next person who complains that Takara asks more money from fans gets this long ass message again, that will be your penance for your ignorance.

[Rated X]

All I ever said is tank megatrons are stupid in my opinion because I grew up in an era where parents didnt raise sissys.

So now anyone who thinks Megtron- the goddamn leader of the Decepticons and one of the most powerful Transformers to ever live- turning into a puny pistol that needs one of his subordinates to hold him to be of any use is a very stupid idea is a "sissy"? Nice, X.

We enjoyed the luxury of having realistic toy guns.

BACK IN MY DAY etc.

Megatron has since been neutered

Far from it! He can actually move on his own in alt mode now and he doesn't need Starscream to hold him to be of any use! If anything he's recieved an upgrade!

and the pro-neo crowd sugarcoats it by calling it an "update". I call it a disgrace.

Nobody cares what you call it X.

On drag strip, other than his head and guns, his vintage G1 toy never had any purple. No purple thighs, highlights, etc. And his car mode should have red stripes not purple.

Yeah, and he looked bloody awful. The purple breaks up all that yellow and stops him looking like a cheese wedge.

As I said earlier, I believe the hasbro decos exist only as an excuse to justify takaras existance to come and save tbe day for G1 fans willing to pay a sometimes higher price. I say "sometimes" because this is not the place to start an Amiami vs. BBTS price debate. Bottom line is takara costs more through MOST outlets regardless of whos inflating the prices.

Oh not this shìt again.

When it comes to the term "updates" the whole concept itself is debatable. You have the camp of collectors who believe hasbro is "re-imagining" G1 characters because its some kind of vision of how the old characters would look in a modern era. (Im assuming your in that camp -I refer to it as the "pro-neo" crowd) Then you have the camp Im in that realizes these are kids toys and the reason the alt modes get "updated" is so kids will buy them. Lets face it, this is 2015 and kids wont think a VW bug or a vintage ironhide style van is cool. They wont buy it. It has nothing to do with a vision of being modernized. "Neo" is just a marketing gimmick to sell more toys to kids who wont play with 80s vehicles they cant relate to. And notice how only autobot cars (and microscopes and boomboxes) get the neo treatment. All the decepticons seem to retain their 1980s alt modes in the CHUG lines with the only exception being scourge.

Let's assume you're right and the reason characters get updates has nothing whatsoever to do with the designers getting sick of doing the same damn designs over and over again and wanting to do something different for a change, and that the real reason that the characters get updated is purely because kids won't buy toys based on 80s vehicles. Well so fùcking what? They're toys for children. Why should the desires of some sweaty manchild collector be more important than those of children- you know, the main market demographic that Hasbro sells to?

I dont count tank megatron because of the neutering factor.

And, you know, the fact a tank makes infinitely more sense than a gun.

For me an "update" simply means a plastic version of a G1 character thats not a brick like its 80s predecessor. It has articulation, advanced engineering, and cartoon accuracy that 1980s engineering did not allow a toy to have. Thats what I call an "update".

That isn't an update, that's a slavish recreation.

Wheter or not the alt mode is 1980s or modern is irrelavant.

It's certainly not irrelevant to whether the toy looks any good or not.

Third parties are a great example. Unique Toys Soundmixer transforms into an 80s boombox but its still an update because its not a brick and its a totally new mold. Same thing goes for Toyworld Hegemon, Unique Toys Mania King, MMC Hexatron, and Art Feather Bumblebee.

No, they aren't a great example. They cater exclusively to collectors and don't have to worry about catering to children.

With all these figures, the creators said "screw the neo alt mode, were staying old school"

And in the case of Hegemon the result was a hideously ugly toy with a stupid alt mode.

But that doesnt make those figures any less of an update than hasbros seekers, cyclonus, thunderwing, tankor, or skybyte who also retain their vintage alt modes in their CHUG incarnations. Other than articulation and modern engineering, hasbro chose not to change them.

Perhaps because there was no need to because they didn't look outdated or awful?

They only "update" the cars. (and boomboxes, microscopes, and guns lol) So the concept of an "update" having to be modern or neo is total BS.

Once again, because their previous alt modes were either outdated or just plain stupid looking.

What about comic characters in the CHUG line that got their first figure like straxus and jihaxus? Are they not updates even though they are in a line full of updates ? The same goes for MMCs DJD figures. Arent they updates too ? I say yes. Not because they updated a physical toy, but because they updated a concept into a tangible reality.

That is...not how an update works. If I have an idea for a car and then I buid that car I haven't "updated" it. I've brought it into existance. If on the other hand my dad had a blueprint for a car and I modified the design with modern tech and stylings and built that, that would be an update.

And with all these examples, they did not alter the alt modes so the younger generation or kids can relate to it.

Probably because there was no need, as cybertronic jets don't tend to go out of date.

They retained comic accuracy in both modes but its still an "update".

No it isn't.

So with my stance on "updates" being thoroughly explained, now hopefully you understand why I cringe on Hasbros addition of purple in drag strips deco just for the sake of being different.

I already understand why you cringe at it- because you're an imbecile who is convinced that nothing can surpass the aesthetic beauty of a poorly drawn kid's cartoon from the 80s.

Its one big marketing gimmick. Kids and the pro-neo crowd buy up the hasbro versions. G1 traditionalists like myself cringe. Then takara swoops in and saves the day.

Because it couldn't possibly have anything to do with the larger collector market in Japan...

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ - the real purpose driving the so called "Asian market" takara has created with their cartoon acccurate decos.

Yes- money from the Jaoanese collector's market.

See here's the thing X. In Japan, Transformers isn't the only high profile robot toy brand. Far from it- stuff like Gundam models, Bandai's Soul of Chogokin line and many, many other brands are far more popular and well esteemed in the collector community in Japan (partly because the source material for a lot of these, especially the likes of Gundam and Macross, is a lot better than the Transformers cartoon). Faced with increased competition, Takara cannot afford to not give their products a premium level of attention- because sales to collectors actually matter to their overall sales. That just isn't the case in the US.

But then I wouldn't expect you to understand that so by all means, continue raving about your ludicrous conspiracy theories.

So now anyone who thinks Megtron- the goddamn leader of the Decepticons and one of the most powerful Transformers to ever live- turning into a puny pistol that needs one of his subordinates to hold him to be of any use is a very stupid idea is a "sissy"? Nice, X.

Actually, I was calling parents who are against realistic toy guns “sissys”. And sissy parents create sissy children. I’m not a parent, but unless you are (which I highly doubt) you really shouldn’t elaborate on my opinion.

BACK IN MY DAY etc.

And ?

Far from it! He can actually move on his own in alt mode now and he doesn't need Starscream to hold him to be of any use! If anything he's recieved an upgrade!

You know I have no problem with mass shifting. So the me the gun is cooler. Isnt it kinda stupid that every CHUG megatron figure emulates gun parts in robot mode but doesn’t turn into a gun ? That’s what I call stupid.

Nobody cares what you call it X.

So you’re saying everyone cares what you think ? 75% of the time, Im the only one on this site who even bothers to quote you…

Yeah, and he looked bloody awful. The purple breaks up all that yellow and stops him looking like a cheese wedge.

Opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one. My opinion is the pure yellow looks awesome. It makes Drag Strip unique, unlike the countless Bumblebee decos that break up the yellow.

Oh not this shìt again.

Show me some proof that kids are demanding Hasbro not to make the figures cartoon accurate. Show me some proof that non-Japanese kids around the world are calling for different decos that aren’t G1 accurate. Why do Hasbro decos even exist anyways ? Why doesn’t the factory in China use the mold just do one massive run of the Takara deco. (And I mean bast colors, not paint apps, so don’t brink up extra costs as an excuse)

Let's assume you're right and the reason characters get updates has nothing whatsoever to do with the designers getting sick of doing the same damn designs over and over again and wanting to do something different for a change, and that the real reason that the characters get updated is purely because kids won't buy toys based on 80s vehicles. Well so fùcking what? They're toys for children. Why should the desires of some sweaty manchild collector be more important than those of children- you know, the main market demographic that Hasbro sells to?

Well besides pretty much re-verbing my beliefs, you’ve agreed with me that the toys are for kids. But as I stated on the response above, show me some proof that these kids want G1 characters that are NOT painted like G1. You cant. You cant prove the don’t want pure G1 any more than I can prove they do. So when were at a stalemate, wouldn’t it be fair to agree that G1 should be ummmm….G1 ?

And, you know, the fact a tank makes infinitely more sense than a gun.

Another blatant opinion. It makes more sense to you. Guns are way cooler because they are unique. How many non-Megatron tank transformers do we have ? A bunch of them. How many gun Transformers do we have ? I can only think of 3 (Megatron, Shockwave, and Vos) And Im also sick of Shockwave getting the tank treatment.

That isn't an update, that's a slavish recreation.

Yet another blatant opinion. Why is Hegemon not an update ? The articulation, cartoon accuracy, and playability has all been updated to today’s standards of engineering. The word “slavish” is very negative and displays obvious hate towards his original incarnation. Maybe you should you the word “faithful” instead. Try it…repeat after me: That's a faithful recreation.

It's certainly not irrelevant to whether the toy looks any good or not.

So you’re saying the original G1 incarnation doesn’t look good ? That makes opinion #4…

No, they aren't a great example. They cater exclusively to collectors and don't have to worry about catering to children.

And in the case of Hegemon the result was a hideously ugly toy with a stupid alt mode.

That’s opinion # 5. You’re the reigning undisputed opinion champion.

perhaps because there was no need to because they didn't look outdated or awful?

Opinion # 6, Im gonna buy you a John Cena belt with DM on the name plate.

That is...not how an update works. If I have an idea for a car and then I buid that car I haven't "updated" it. I've brought it into existance. If on the other hand my dad had a blueprint for a car and I modified the design with modern tech and stylings and built that, that would be an update.

The characters were already in existence. Just not in plastic form. Its kind of hard not to call one particular figure an update when its part of a line made exclusively for the sole purpose of updating G1 characters, be it comic or cartoon. And as Saberblade divulged, I was wrong about Straxus and Jihaxus original comic alt modes, (I don’t read much comics) So their first official toys are indeed an update if we go by your definition.

Probably because there was no need, as cybertronic jets don't tend to go out of date.

So you are saying G1 Cyclonus alt mode is not outdated but G1 Scourge alt mode is ?

No it isn't.

Thank heaven for copy and paste…let me repeat what I already typed:

The articulation, cartoon accuracy, and playability has all been updated to today’s standards of engineering.

It might not be updating the things YOU want, but Unique Toys Soundmixer is definitely an update to the original vintage Blaster toy.

I already understand why you cringe at it- because you're an imbecile who is convinced that nothing can surpass the aesthetic beauty of a poorly drawn kid's cartoon from the 80s.

Opinion # 7. And a rude one at that. You could beat Floyd Mayweather in trash talking match.

Full Definition of IMBECILE
1
usually offensive : a person affected with moderate mental retardation
2
: fool, idiot

Are you really sure you want to go there DM ?

Because it couldn't possibly have anything to do with the larger collector market in Japan...

Right now were talking Transformers. I never questioned why Takara goes premium with their decos. I questioned why Hasbro doesn’t go G1 with their decos. You’re trying to mix apples and oranges in the same basket.

Yes- money from the Jaoanese collector's market.

I’m inclined to believe more Takara figures end up in other countries than in Japan once they leave China where they are made. Except maybe Great Britain because of those horrible import fees. Ouch !

See here's the thing X. In Japan, Transformers isn't the only high profile robot toy brand. Far from it- stuff like Gundam models, Bandai's Soul of Chogokin line and many, many other brands are far more popular and well esteemed in the collector community in Japan (partly because the source material for a lot of these, especially the likes of Gundam and Macross, is a lot better than the Transformers cartoon). Faced with increased competition, Takara cannot afford to not give their products a premium level of attention- because sales to collectors actually matter to their overall sales. That just isn't the case in the US.

Im well aware of the robot mania that goes on in Japan. While there is some competition to prove which robot brand is superior, Takara seems to be more about focusing on the Transformers brand’s rich 30 year history of various continuities and fiction. All those other lines you mentioned are more focused on creating new characters and new fiction. (with Macross being the exception) Takara is about homage. That’s what they do. My question is why Hasbro doesn’t do the same thing with the base colors? I can understand Takara having extra paint apps (tampos) to appease adult Japanese collectors. But I fail to see why Hasbro doesn’t just use the Takara base colors without the extra apps. Why the off white ? Why the crappy grey ? It wouldn’t cost Hasbro a dime extra to just package Takara versions without the extra budget tampos, painted rims, etc.

But then I wouldn't expect you to understand that so by all means, continue raving about your ludicrous conspiracy theories.

Every time you disagree with someone else’s opinion you label it a “conspiracy theory” yet you conspire to shoot out more blatant opinions on here than anyone else. You are like Tsu, but Tsu was amusing. Youre not.

Rated X and Delta Magnus, get back on topic and stop with the personal insults ! It will not be tolerated and any further comments of that nature will result in a warning for both of you !

My bad. You know he likes to troll me so I had to say something. Ill tone it down.

[Rated X]

As I said earlier, I believe the hasbro decos exist only as an excuse to justify takaras existance to come and save tbe day for G1 fans willing to pay a sometimes higher price. I say "sometimes" because this is not the place to start an Amiami vs. BBTS price debate. Bottom line is takara costs more through MOST outlets regardless of whos inflating the prices.

Oh not this shìt again.

I have to stop reading things at work on my breaks because sometimes I read a reply like this that just cracks me up and then everyone looks at me funny. X, what you are writing smells like a conspiracy theory. But since the higher cost is just to import that would mean that the person who gains the most from fans needing to buy the Takara versions is the Japanese post office. Reread what you wrote and tell me how that doesnt mean that you believe Hasbro's deco exists for the greed of the Japanese postal office, because that is what you are insinuating without knowing. And in terms of importing in bulk, which is what BBTS does, the US government is the one who charges (and profits from)those importing fees. So yeah, like any good conspiracy theory, Hasbro's deco is controlled by the government. While this sounds insane (which it is), that is what your writing comes across as saying in terms of costs and deco preference.

But seriously guys, I dont get what I so hard to understand, it's not like importing vs buying locally only happens with TFs. Do we say "damn you Vietnam" because dragon fruit doesnt grow locally and we are thus forced to import it if we want to eat it. And we are fully conscious that they dont pay the same amount for it since they can grow it in their back yard. The truth is there is no debate and no issue. The deal with Takara vs Hasbro (or BBTS vs Amiami which is a totally irrelevant thing to write)is just importing vs buying locally. That happens with eveything else, its not an isolated issue that only TFs have. You find it with dvds that were only released in Japan (like that Kill Bill version with the colored fight sequence), or DS games that are only found in Japan (like the latest Ace Attourney with Miles Edgeworth), or CDs from KPop bands my wife listens to. Those things arent distributed locally so we are stuck importing them. And depending on where you live, the cost will change. But there is no debate, the retail price in Japan is the price of the toy/object/collectable. Everything else is cost one chooses to pay. So here is the deal: TF toys distributed in Japan are priced the same as TF toys in the US, end of story. And this is crucial because while it can be true that one may cost more for some people (like Hasbro figures costing more to a Japan based collector rather than an American), saying that Takara is asking more for their products is FALSE and makes anyone who says this look like they have no clue about this hobby, or simple economics (I am not directing this to anyone in particular but as a word of caution to anyone who is ill informed).

So there is no debate. It's just the rules of international trade and it is the same thing that happens with any product that isn't distributed locally, whatever your "locally" is. The next person who complains that Takara asks more money from fans gets this long ass message again, that will be your penance for your ignorance.

The bottom line is Takara costs ME more money than Hasbro. Dont know whos pocketing the money, dont care. All I know is once it leaves my pocket, it costs ME more.

I appreciate that you found a site that sells Takara products at Hasbro prices. but as you stated in the past, they sell out quick. Only time will tell if other smaller distributors will follow their lead and create enough competition to force the big guys to drop their prices.

my opinion is hasbro versions shouldnt even exist. There should be one set of base colors that Takara picks since they all come from the same mold that resides in China. Then Hasbro and Takara could use their different budgets to decide how many tampos, painted rims, chrome, etc can be used on the universal base figure. Thats how it should be. No more crappy off white. No more horrible grey. No more non G1 accurate base colors just so Takara can come 4 months later and say "buy ours now cause we got the colors right".

[william-james88]

The bottom line is Takara costs ME more money than Hasbro. Dont know whos pocketing the money, dont care. All I know is once it leaves my pocket, it costs ME more.

I hear you X, and my comment was not aimed at you directly since I caught that you were talking about what it costs you. I just wanted to write it out there because I do see notions going around that "Takara wants us to pay more" which I wanted to put to rest and now seemed lik a good time to write it. And I do get that view that there could only be 1 deco. It is happening right now with the TRU exclusive Clash of the TF figures. Both the Takara and Hasbro version has the very same deco (which includes more paint apps than usual hasbro releases). So at least there are some toys and elements of the brand which share your notion.

However, it's when trying to find reasons for the difference in deco between Takara and Hasbro that it gets a bit odd. It usually comes down to cutting costs for Hasbro (as we know for sure in the case of Devastator) but aside from that any other reason I can come up with that isnt just "because Hasbro wants a slightly new take" end up sounding like a conspiracy theory.

Oh and Amiami isnt the only place to get Takara TFS at the same price they sell for in Japan. There is also Animeexport and HLJ. Probably others but I don't know them. I recomend you check them out for MPs, they usually have a way cheaper price than BBTS. A buddy got Bumblebee for 40$ shipped and I just got Legends Arcee for 20$ US shipped

[Hellscream9999]

my opinion is hasbro versions shouldnt even exist (<= THIS IS A JOKE). There should be one set of base colors that Takara picks since they all come from the same mold that resides in China. Then Hasbro and Takara could use their different budgets to decide how many tampos, painted rims, chrome, etc can be used on the universal base figure. Thats how it should be. No more crappy off white. No more horrible grey. No more non G1 accurate base colors just so Takara can come 4 months later and say "buy ours now cause we got the colors right".

I agree that the protectobots should have had painted rims (they really should have).

I like the hasbro superion, I like the difference of the whites, I didn't like the 'sameness' of the TT color scheme, despite their increased details; so that first point is garbage. I won't buy them, but I like that their are two versions of the figures, so that you can buy whichever one you like.

I don't even know why you bought the hasbro figures, if you're so determined to dislike them, and know that TT will inevitably fit you're sense of aesthetics better. If you double up, of course it's going to cost you more money

[Evil Eye]

So now anyone who thinks Megtron- the goddamn leader of the Decepticons and one of the most powerful Transformers to ever live- turning into a puny pistol that needs one of his subordinates to hold him to be of any use is a very stupid idea is a "sissy"? Nice, X.

Actually, I was calling parents who are against realistic toy guns “sissys”. And sissy parents create sissy children. I’m not a parent, but unless you are (which I highly doubt) you really shouldn’t elaborate on my opinion.

So now not wanting children being shot by police for being mistaken for wielding dangerous weapons makes someone a sissy. Good to know.

BACK IN MY DAY etc.

And ?

And it's just plain laughable. You sound like an old man crying for those pesky kids to GET OFF HIS LAWN. You're a grown an getting angry about his toys meant for children not matching up to his rose-tinted memories.

Far from it! He can actually move on his own in alt mode now and he doesn't need Starscream to hold him to be of any use! If anything he's recieved an upgrade!

You know I have no problem with mass shifting. So the me the gun is cooler. Isnt it kinda stupid that every CHUG megatron figure emulates gun parts in robot mode but doesn’t turn into a gun ? That’s what I call stupid.

I know you have no proble with mass shifting. You won't shut up about it. To be honest I wouldn't mind Megatron being a gun so much if he wasn't the goddamn leader. A leader doesn't need to be held by someone to be useful.

Nobody cares what you call it X.

So you’re saying everyone cares what you think ? 75% of the time, Im the only one on this site who even bothers to quote you…

Nope, I don't think everybody cares what I think. But I'm not the grown man who throws petulant sh!tfits whenever Hasbro makes his toys "wrong".

Yeah, and he looked bloody awful. The purple breaks up all that yellow and stops him looking like a cheese wedge.

Opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one. My opinion is the pure yellow looks awesome. It makes Drag Strip unique, unlike the countless Bumblebee decos that break up the yellow.

What? What does Bumblebee have to do with it? Are you seriously saying that a predominantly yellow robot that isn't totally yellow is easily mistakable for Bumblebee?

Oh not this shìt again.

Show me some proof that kids are demanding Hasbro not to make the figures cartoon accurate. Show me some proof that non-Japanese kids around the world are calling for different decos that aren’t G1 accurate. Why do Hasbro decos even exist anyways ? Why doesn’t the factory in China use the mold just do one massive run of the Takara deco. (And I mean bast colors, not paint apps, so don’t brink up extra costs as an excuse)

Because a great deal of kids, upon being presented with a choice of a block-coloured bright yellow robot and the same robot but with an actually interesting colour palette, will pick the interesting looking one. Most kids won't care what's GEEWUN accurate, they want what looks cool. This less picky deomgraphic allows the guys at Hasbro to actually have some creative liberty with the colours and even *gasp* IMPROVE on the original decos.

Let's assume you're right and the reason characters get updates has nothing whatsoever to do with the designers getting sick of doing the same damn designs over and over again and wanting to do something different for a change, and that the real reason that the characters get updated is purely because kids won't buy toys based on 80s vehicles. Well so fùcking what? They're toys for children. Why should the desires of some sweaty manchild collector be more important than those of children- you know, the main market demographic that Hasbro sells to?

Well besides pretty much re-verbing my beliefs, you’ve agreed with me that the toys are for kids. But as I stated on the response above, show me some proof that these kids want G1 characters that are NOT painted like G1. You cant. You cant prove the don’t want pure G1 any more than I can prove they do. So when were at a stalemate, wouldn’t it be fair to agree that G1 should be ummmm….G1 ?

Most kids buying Transformers have never even SEEN G1. They just want something that looks cool and is fun to play with.

And besides, you say "G1 should remain G1!" but G1 has taken on countless permutations and changes since its inception. The cartoon designs are radically different to the toy designs, the toy designs are often radically different to the comic designs, and that's not even counting the many other media that is still technically G1 (Dreamwave, IDW, the various manga etc...). Change has ALWAYS been part of Transformers.

And, you know, the fact a tank makes infinitely more sense than a gun.

Another blatant opinion. It makes more sense to you. Guns are way cooler because they are unique. How many non-Megatron tank transformers do we have ? A bunch of them. How many gun Transformers do we have ? I can only think of 3 (Megatron, Shockwave, and Vos) And Im also sick of Shockwave getting the tank treatment.

There are scarcely any gun transformers because fortunately the guys at HasTak realized how stupid gunformers are. Think about it. A mighty robotic warrior has to be held by someone else to be of any use at all in his alt mode. It's like Darth Vader turning into his own Lightsaber to be wielded by a Stormtrooper. It's just stupid. That's not an "opinion", it's common sense.

That isn't an update, that's a slavish recreation.

Yet another blatant opinion. Why is Hegemon not an update ? The articulation, cartoon accuracy, and playability has all been updated to today’s standards of engineering. The word “slavish” is very negative and displays obvious hate towards his original incarnation. Maybe you should you the word “faithful” instead. Try it…repeat after me: That's a faithful recreation.

No. It's a slavish recreation because it carries over the rubbish parts of his design (turning into a gun for example) and refuses to make any improvements over the original. Imagine if Ford decided to stop making new cars and instead only produce Model Ts. They'd be laughed out of the business and go bankrupt.

It's certainly not irrelevant to whether the toy looks any good or not.

So you’re saying the original G1 incarnation doesn’t look good ? That makes opinion #4…

In the case of Drag Strip? It's blatantly true. He was just a yellow box man with a purple head. Hasbro CW Drag Strip looks infinitely better, end of story. He has actual effort put into his design, a much better colour scheme that avoids him looking overly monochramatic, and a MUCH cooler headsculpt than his G1 toy or cartoon model.

And in the case of Hegemon the result was a hideously ugly toy with a stupid alt mode.

That’s opinion # 5. You’re the reigning undisputed opinion champion.

Once again though, it's true. And let's be honest, if Megatron had been a tank in your precious G1 cartoon and they made him into a gun, you'd be whining about how much cooler a tank is than a gun.

perhaps because there was no need to because they didn't look outdated or awful?

Opinion # 6, Im gonna buy you a John Cena belt with DM on the name plate.

Once again. It's true. You can call it an "opinion" all you like, but it's true.

That is...not how an update works. If I have an idea for a car and then I buid that car I haven't "updated" it. I've brought it into existance. If on the other hand my dad had a blueprint for a car and I modified the design with modern tech and stylings and built that, that would be an update.

The characters were already in existence. Just not in plastic form. Its kind of hard not to call one particular figure an update when its part of a line made exclusively for the sole purpose of updating G1 characters, be it comic or cartoon. And as Saberblade divulged, I was wrong about Straxus and Jihaxus original comic alt modes, (I don’t read much comics) So their first official toys are indeed an update if we go by your definition.

Well Sabrblade's post was made before I had finished my masterwork, so I'll admit that Straxus and Jihaxus are updates. But calling CHUG Cyclonus an "update" when he's literally just his G1 character model in plastic form is ludicrous.

Probably because there was no need, as cybertronic jets don't tend to go out of date.

So you are saying G1 Cyclonus alt mode is not outdated but G1 Scourge alt mode is ?

Scourge's G1 vehicle mode looks ludicrous. it's a goddamn soap dish.

No it isn't.

Thank heaven for copy and paste…let me repeat what I already typed:

The articulation, cartoon accuracy, and playability has all been updated to today’s standards of engineering.

It might not be updating the things YOU want, but Unique Toys Soundmixer is definitely an update to the original vintage Blaster toy.

No. It's a slavish recreation of the G1 cartoon character model. An update would remove the silly boombox mode and have him turn into something that actually makes sense.

I already understand why you cringe at it- because you're an imbecile who is convinced that nothing can surpass the aesthetic beauty of a poorly drawn kid's cartoon from the 80s.

Opinion # 7. And a rude one at that. You could beat Floyd Mayweather in trash talking match.

Full Definition of IMBECILE
1
usually offensive : a person affected with moderate mental ******
2
: fool, idiot

Are you really sure you want to go there DM ?

Stop behaving like an imbecile and I'll stop calling you one.

And yes I am 100% sure I want to go there. I am a veritable god of insults and offense.

Because it couldn't possibly have anything to do with the larger collector market in Japan...

Right now were talking Transformers. I never questioned why Takara goes premium with their decos. I questioned why Hasbro doesn’t go G1 with their decos. You’re trying to mix apples and oranges in the same basket.

Because A: They don't need to, and B: they want to do something new.

Yes- money from the Japanese collector's market.

I’m inclined to believe more Takara figures end up in other countries than in Japan once they leave China where they are made. Except maybe Great Britain because of those horrible import fees. Ouch !

Considering the vast majority of Takara figures will end up in Japanese brick and mortar stores that's highly unlikely.

See here's the thing X. In Japan, Transformers isn't the only high profile robot toy brand. Far from it- stuff like Gundam models, Bandai's Soul of Chogokin line and many, many other brands are far more popular and well esteemed in the collector community in Japan (partly because the source material for a lot of these, especially the likes of Gundam and Macross, is a lot better than the Transformers cartoon). Faced with increased competition, Takara cannot afford to not give their products a premium level of attention- because sales to collectors actually matter to their overall sales. That just isn't the case in the US.

Im well aware of the robot mania that goes on in Japan. While there is some competition to prove which robot brand is superior, Takara seems to be more about focusing on the Transformers brand’s rich 30 year history of various continuities and fiction. All those other lines you mentioned are more focused on creating new characters and new fiction. (with Macross being the exception) Takara is about homage. That’s what they do. My question is why Hasbro doesn’t do the same thing with the base colors? I can understand Takara having extra paint apps (tampos) to appease adult Japanese collectors. But I fail to see why Hasbro doesn’t just use the Takara base colors without the extra apps. Why the off white ? Why the crappy grey ? It wouldn’t cost Hasbro a dime extra to just package Takara versions without the extra budget tampos, painted rims, etc.

That's not how it works.

For one thing, the Takara versions usually come after the Hasbro versions. Hasbro will have created the original version of the figures, which will then be modified by Takara for a Japanese release. Hasbro can't import a product that doesn't exist. For another, budget. The Takara versions usually cost more to produce due to more intricate colour applications (like those painted rims). Finally, there's the simple fact (as I keep reiterating) that collectors are not Hasbro's main audience. The target audience does not care about how GEEWUN their products are, so Basbro's colourists will choose colours that A: fall within budget restrictions, B: will be eye-catching and appealing to children, and C: that they think look cool. Believe it or not, Hasbro are allowed to make changes to their own creation and they don't need your approval for every decision they make.

But now I'm just repeating myself. Goddamnit you're a tiresome...human being? We'll go with that, tenuous as it may be.

But then I wouldn't expect you to understand that so by all means, continue raving about your ludicrous conspiracy theories.

Every time you disagree with someone else’s opinion you label it a “conspiracy theory” yet you conspire to shoot out more blatant opinions on here than anyone else. You are like Tsu, but Tsu was amusing. Youre not.
[/quote]
No, X. Only with you. Mainly because spouting baseless accusations of some vast net of deceit aimed at keeping you personally from getting your perfect collection makes you sound like a lunatic.

Rated X and Delta Magnus, get back on topic and stop with the personal insults ! It will not be tolerated and any further comments of that nature will result in a warning for both of you !

My bad. You know he likes to troll me so I had to say something. Ill tone it down.

[/quote]Well at least you're somewhat aware you're sh!tting up yet another thread with your tedious drivel.

[steals_your_goats]

So guys how about them robits... Pretty neat right?

[Hellscream9999]

So guys how about them robits... Pretty neat right?

Yup, pretty neat

[steals_your_goats]

So guys how about them robits... Pretty neat right?

Yup, pretty neat

Anyone else find it a bit odd that we haven't seen anything besides a silhouette for the Takara autobot combiner? I mean we're getting news about Bruticus already but nothing for the autobros.

[Hellscream9999]

So guys how about them robits... Pretty neat right?

Yup, pretty neat

Anyone else find it a bit odd that we haven't seen anything besides a silhouette for the Takara autobot combiner? I mean we're getting news about Bruticus already but nothing for the autobros.

It's probably because there isn't as much collector/nostalgia/general interest in it as there is for teasing blastoff before the pre-orders even go up.

They are just a random collection of 's forced together into some hideous combined mode. They weren't really pulled from G1 canon, and they certainly don't really look like they should, if it was 'super G1' like everything else they've tried to do with this line.

It could be that they plan to do something special with it, like nova prime and 'evil' clones or something weird, but I think that they know that there is much more interest in blast-off, especially for what they're doing.

[Wolfman Jake]

Okay, even if Takara Tomy releases cost more for you as someone who doesn't live in Japan, that is still a matter of your circumstance and not Takara's wanting to put the screws to "foreign" fans or you (any of you) in particular. First, as far as the MSRP of Takara releases being more than that of the Hasbro releases, it's MYTH BUSTED. They don't. Second, even though Takara products are routinely sold outside of Japan, this is done by third party "middle men" who are the ones getting the profits on mark-ups for the cost of importing foreign goods to your country. That's not Takara's fault. That's how international trade works. Takara's market and audience of concern is Japan, period. Not anyone living outside of Japan (generally, let's not get lost on a tangent abou Transformers Asia releases). Now that that is out of the way, we can firmly state that Takara is not charging MORE for items with fewer paint apps, either in Japan or anywhere else in the world, as many perceive is going on with Unite Warriors Menasor (and perhaps Defensor). They cost the same or even less than what you would pay at U.S. retail for the Hasbro equivalents (and way less than, say, markets in Europe, South America, etc.).

That really is the operative word here too: EQUIVALENT. Objectively, you can't usually say the Hasbro version or Takara version of a figure is superior to the other, because they aren't aiming for the same design philosophy. It's not exactly apples and oranges, but maybe Red Deliciouses and Granny Smiths? Subjectively, yes, we can each make a judgment call on what looks better or what fits the parameters our own cost/benefit ratios, but those will always be personal opinions, not indisputable facts. At the end of the day, I think a lot of this boils down to cognitive dissonance and "buyer's remorse." We naturally want to defend our choices, especially when resources (money) are limited. We want to feel like we made the "right" choice, and anything that questions our decisions is seen as threatening, something to discredit or combat. It's human nature. But with a little more awareness of what is going on both outside and inside our loci of control, we can take a step back and have fun with our hobby instead of making it a quagmire of anxiety, uncertainty, conflict, and most of all: ego.

[steals_your_goats]

So guys how about them robits... Pretty neat right?

Yup, pretty neat

Anyone else find it a bit odd that we haven't seen anything besides a silhouette for the Takara autobot combiner? I mean we're getting news about Bruticus already but nothing for the autobros.

They are just a random collection of 's forced together into some hideous combined mode. They weren't really pulled from G1 canon, and they certainly don't really look like they should

I don't know about that, I mean...I like them. I do understand why some don't but I wouldn'tc call it hideous

[Hellscream9999]

So guys how about them robits... Pretty neat right?

Yup, pretty neat

Anyone else find it a bit odd that we haven't seen anything besides a silhouette for the Takara autobot combiner? I mean we're getting news about Bruticus already but nothing for the autobros.

They are just a random collection of 's forced together into some hideous combined mode. They weren't really pulled from G1 canon, and they certainly don't really look like they should

I don't know about that, I mean...I like them. I do understand why some don't but I wouldn't call it hideous

I technically meant the engineering involved in the torso mode; It is terrible, and I cannot be convinced otherwise, having experienced it (believe me I want to like menasor)

I personally feel that the limb bots will be exceptional as limbs, if only for the unique splashes of color that they bring to the table, and I will be getting them

[steals_your_goats]

So guys how about them robits... Pretty neat right?

Yup, pretty neat

Anyone else find it a bit odd that we haven't seen anything besides a silhouette for the Takara autobot combiner? I mean we're getting news about Bruticus already but nothing for the autobros.

They are just a random collection of 's forced together into some hideous combined mode. They weren't really pulled from G1 canon, and they certainly don't really look like they should

I don't know about that, I mean...I like them. I do understand why some don't but I wouldn't call it hideous

I technically meant the engineering involved in the torso mode; It is terrible, and I cannot be convinced otherwise, having experienced it (believe me I want to like menasor)

I personally feel that the limb bots will be exceptional as limbs, if only for the unique splashes of color that they bring to the table, and I will be getting them

Ohhh okay, yeah I'd have to agree with you on that one. I like menasor in the fan mode I have him in but the official one sucks noodles

[Hellscream9999]

They are just a random collection of 's forced together into some hideous combined mode. They weren't really pulled from G1 canon, and they certainly don't really look like they should

I don't know about that, I mean...I like them. I do understand why some don't but I wouldn't call it hideous

I technically meant the engineering involved in the torso mode; It is terrible, and I cannot be convinced otherwise, having experienced it (believe me I want to like menasor)

I personally feel that the limb bots will be exceptional as limbs, if only for the unique splashes of color that they bring to the table, and I will be getting them

Ohhh okay, yeah I'd have to agree with you on that one. I like menasor in the fan mode I have him in but the official one sucks noodles

Mines' knee's were to weak to hold a pose in any fan mode (these weren't even strenuous poses either, mind you), so I packed him away when I got Cyclonus ( ) Even if all they did was re-engineer his legs to be similar to hotspot, I feel that would have worked much better (but they didn't so he will eternally suck )

[steals_your_goats]

They are just a random collection of 's forced together into some hideous combined mode. They weren't really pulled from G1 canon, and they certainly don't really look like they should

I don't know about that, I mean...I like them. I do understand why some don't but I wouldn't call it hideous

I technically meant the engineering involved in the torso mode; It is terrible, and I cannot be convinced otherwise, having experienced it (believe me I want to like menasor)

I personally feel that the limb bots will be exceptional as limbs, if only for the unique splashes of color that they bring to the table, and I will be getting them

Ohhh okay, yeah I'd have to agree with you on that one. I like menasor in the fan mode I have him in but the official one sucks noodles

Mines' knee's were to weak to hold a pose in any fan mode (these weren't even strenuous poses either, mind you), so I packed him away when I got Cyclonus ( ) Even if all they did was re-engineer his legs to be similar to hotspot, I feel that would have worked much better (but they didn't so he will eternally suck )

I hear ya on the weak knees, you look at mine the wrong way and he flops over

[Hellscream9999]

They are just a random collection of 's forced together into some hideous combined mode. They weren't really pulled from G1 canon, and they certainly don't really look like they should

I don't know about that, I mean...I like them. I do understand why some don't but I wouldn't call it hideous

I technically meant the engineering involved in the torso mode; It is terrible, and I cannot be convinced otherwise, having experienced it (believe me I want to like menasor)

I personally feel that the limb bots will be exceptional as limbs, if only for the unique splashes of color that they bring to the table, and I will be getting them

Ohhh okay, yeah I'd have to agree with you on that one. I like menasor in the fan mode I have him in but the official one sucks noodles

Mines' knee's were to weak to hold a pose in any fan mode (these weren't even strenuous poses either, mind you), so I packed him away when I got Cyclonus ( ) Even if all they did was re-engineer his legs to be similar to hotspot, I feel that would have worked much better (but they didn't so he will eternally suck )

I hear ya on the weak knees, you look at mine the wrong way and he flops over

Well he's just so dense (insert plinkett joke here => ____) everyone was whining and pissing about how hollow hotspot was, but didn't even realize that the missing weight meant that he wouldn't then fall over

It also didn't help that the stunticons are dense lumps all on their own and that all that weight in menasors shoulders was (his own and the limbs) a failure waiting to happen - yet another reason that superion is the stand-out combiner (so solid)

[fenrir72]

The bottom line is Takara costs ME more money than Hasbro. Dont know whos pocketing the money, dont care. All I know is once it leaves my pocket, it costs ME more.

I hear you X, and my comment was not aimed at you directly since I caught that you were talking about what it costs you. I just wanted to write it out there because I do see notions going around that "Takara wants us to pay more" which I wanted to put to rest and now seemed lik a good time to write it. And I do get that view that there could only be 1 deco. It is happening right now with the TRU exclusive Clash of the TF figures. Both the Takara and Hasbro version has the very same deco (which includes more paint apps than usual hasbro releases). So at least there are some toys and elements of the brand which share your notion.

However, it's when trying to find reasons for the difference in deco between Takara and Hasbro that it gets a bit odd. It usually comes down to cutting costs for Hasbro (as we know for sure in the case of Devastator) but aside from that any other reason I can come up with that isnt just "because Hasbro wants a slightly new take" end up sounding like a conspiracy theory.

Oh and Amiami isnt the only place to get Takara TFS at the same price they sell for in Japan. There is also Animeexport and HLJ. Probably others but I don't know them. I recomend you check them out for MPs, they usually have a way cheaper price than BBTS. A buddy got Bumblebee for 40$ shipped and I just got Legends Arcee for 20$ US shipped

Kind of running like clockwork eh wj88? Seems like there's a regular interval for these "eruptions" to appear then disappear again. Like acne. Iirc , you and many others already mentioned the alternative sources on where to procure imports at less "painful" circumstance. Heck, even Kanrabat and yours truly also opined on the subject. Maybe this is to justify an individual's meaningless existence in this cruel world where the only constant is the soap box/bully pulpit on the evils of Hasbro and TT.

Not to wj88 in particular

This "slight" deviation from the main topic and it took like 2 pages before someone returns it back to sanity? I post a non kilometric non retread issue sub discussion and I get flack on the get go? Well, this sort of this does increase the traffic........

[Burn]

Can we NOT have the debate Hasbro/Takara-Tomy cost/whodiditbetter debate AGAIN?

[fenrir72]

Can we NOT have the debate Hasbro/Takara-Tomy cost/whodiditbetter debate AGAIN?

Wait till the end of August when TT Menasor is released and maybe end of November when Guardian is also released. Same old same old again. Then the last 2 weeks of December when Devstar is also released and another and another.............

[Hellscream9999]

Can we NOT have the debate Hasbro/Takara-Tomy cost/whodiditbetter debate AGAIN?

Wait till the end of August when TT Menasor is released and maybe end of November when Guardian is also released. Same old same old again. Then the last 2 weeks of December when Devstar is also released and another and another.............

Well to be fair TT really did hit Devastator outta the park as a whole. I think the hasbro version is a convenient way to get just devastator for a very equitable price, but for those who want the team as a whole, the TT is undeniably better