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The big thing that gets people about the first Takara versions of Rhinox and Waspinator is that Takara put the metallic sheen on the animal skin parts instead of any of the robot parts that actually were shiny in the show. Rhinox should have had his green parts get the metallic sheen instead of his brown rhino skin pieces. Waspinator's robot head and arms should have been the parts to get metallic sheen instead of all his yellow (or rather, gold) parts.

These LG-EX versions attempt to fix that issue by instead just excising the metallic sheen from Rhinox and Waspeeter altogether, along with some additional paint apps and rearranged paint choices to make for an even more show-accurate look... in theory.

While it mostly works for Rhinox, I feel that the darker, more vivid shade of green used on the first Takara Waspinator is more show-accurate than the lighter (but not as light as Hasbro's) shade of green used on LG-EX Waspeeter. But, the LG-EX Waspeeter does have the more show-accurate black and yellow paint apps found in various places all over the figure. Yet, of all three versions, it is only the Hasbro version that even attempts to give the figure his show-accurate lighter shade of green on the inner piece of the robot torso's center. And still, all three of them still don't have Waspinator's shoulder discs painted gold.

To put it simply, all three of the Waspinators seem to try for show-accuracy but still have something preventing each of them, in different ways, from reaching their goal.

primalxconvoy wrote:
I have to disagree. Although G1 can get a pass for not being authentic to the cartoons, I have no empathy for the original Beast wars toys, as it was the SHOW thta was the "real" look, rather than the toys )toy-only molds nonwithstanding). Thus, for me, the Hasblow versions are neithr show, nor toy accurate and thus worthless.

How does G1 get a pass and not Beast Wars when its the same thing. Like G1, Beast Wars was a toyline first and a show second. Like G1, the show was just made to sell the toys and took liberties on how the toys looked in the first season.

Here are the actual initial character models for the Beast Wars show.










As you can see, they are far more toy based, showing what the show based itself on and what the initial mandate was.

Denying the importance of the toys is denying the essence of the brand and this hobby. Until 2007, Transformers was a toy brand first with any fiction made to simply sell toys. So homaging the true essence of this brand, the toys, has as much value than homaging the fiction.

william-james88 wrote:Denying the importance of the toys is denying the essence of the brand and this hobby. Until 2007, Transformers was a toy brand first with any fiction made to simply sell toys.

This isn't entirely to-the-letter true; IDW's Transformers comics - which have been around since October 2005 - never had the intention of selling toys and Hasbro never asked them to until 2008's All Hail Megatron. And I'm pretty sure Dreamwave wasn't made to sell toys either.

Other than that though, yeah, I agree completely.

Kurona wrote:

william-james88 wrote:Denying the importance of the toys is denying the essence of the brand and this hobby. Until 2007, Transformers was a toy brand first with any fiction made to simply sell toys.

This isn't entirely to-the-letter true; IDW's Transformers comics - which have been around since October 2005 - never had the intention of selling toys and Hasbro never asked them to until 2008's All Hail Megatron. And I'm pretty sure Dreamwave wasn't made to sell toys either.

Other than that though, yeah, I agree completely.

Not just comics, but one could argue that even one of the cartoons, Beast Machines, was pretty light on the "To sell toys" aspect, what with how uncoordinated the show and toyline were with each other.

Sabrblade wrote:

Kurona wrote:

william-james88 wrote:Denying the importance of the toys is denying the essence of the brand and this hobby. Until 2007, Transformers was a toy brand first with any fiction made to simply sell toys.

This isn't entirely to-the-letter true; IDW's Transformers comics - which have been around since October 2005 - never had the intention of selling toys and Hasbro never asked them to until 2008's All Hail Megatron. And I'm pretty sure Dreamwave wasn't made to sell toys either.

Other than that though, yeah, I agree completely.

Not just comics, but one could argue that even one of the cartoons, Beast Machines, was pretty light on the "To sell toys" aspect, what with how uncoordinated the show and toyline were with each other.

That's true. Hell, with Megatron's final body you could argue it kind of ended up selling a toy from the previous toyline

Though unlike BM, Dreamwave and IDW (until AHM) had absolutely no toyline behind them.

Kurona wrote:Though unlike BM, Dreamwave and IDW (until AHM) had absolutely no toyline behind them.

While true, I will bring up that the individual Dreamwave issues did include advertisements for the then-contemporary Generation One Commemorative Series toyline of TRU exclusives, among the other usual comic book ads.

Sabrblade wrote:

Kurona wrote:Though unlike BM, Dreamwave and IDW (until AHM) had absolutely no toyline behind them.

While true, I will bring up that the individual Dreamwave issues did include advertisements for the then-contemporary Generation One Commemorative Series toyline of TRU exclusives, among the other usual comic book ads.

My main point is that these are secondary to the brand. And the comics wouldnt count as the same because it was (and is) licensed fiction. Hasbro doesnt make money from the comic book sales, they get it from licensing there, so its a different thing. My main point was that the shows cmissioned by hasbro are made to sell the toyline and that the toys were the main focal point of the TF Brand. We can at least agree on that and thus their importance, right?

william-james88 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:

Kurona wrote:Though unlike BM, Dreamwave and IDW (until AHM) had absolutely no toyline behind them.

While true, I will bring up that the individual Dreamwave issues did include advertisements for the then-contemporary Generation One Commemorative Series toyline of TRU exclusives, among the other usual comic book ads.

My main point is that these are secondary to the brand. And the comics wouldnt count as the same because it was (and is) licensed fiction. Hasbro doesnt make money from the comic book sales, they get it from licensing there, so its a different thing. My main point was that the shows cmissioned by hasbro are made to sell the toyline and that the toys were the main focal point of the TF Brand. We can at least agree on that and thus their importance, right?

Yeah, definitely. The main motivation for Hasbro to make Transformers fiction is to sell toys, to put it simply.

william-james88 wrote:

primalxconvoy wrote:
I have to disagree. Although G1 can get a pass for not being authentic to the cartoons, I have no empathy for the original Beast wars toys, as it was the SHOW thta was the "real" look, rather than the toys )toy-only molds nonwithstanding). Thus, for me, the Hasblow versions are neithr show, nor toy accurate and thus worthless.

How does G1 get a pass and not Beast Wars when its the same thing. Like G1, Beast Wars was a toyline first and a show second. Like G1, the show was just made to sell the toys and took liberties on how the toys looked in the first season.

Here are the actual initial character models for the Beast Wars show.










As you can see, they are far more toy based, showing what the show based itself on and what the initial mandate was.

Denying the importance of the toys is denying the essence of the brand and this hobby. Until 2007, Transformers was a toy brand first with any fiction made to simply sell toys. So homaging the true essence of this brand, the toys, has as much value than homaging the fiction.

Again, I disagree. The G1 toys, made at the time, came BEFORE the cartoon. The level of engineering, even for later toys based on the animation, was quite low. Thus, some level of acceptance can be given. For most of us, the cartoon or comics are what we based our perceptions of the characters on. One counter to this might be the sheer amount of extra, toy-only details for the G1 toys, which then can provide such a different aesthetic as to be worth a different recolour.

For Beast Wars, and especially the show characters, it was the show, not the original toys, that have given us our memories of what looks "right" about the figures. This means that "show accurate" will always trump "toy accurate" when it comes to the Western beast wars figures.

primalxconvoy wrote:For Beast Wars, and especially the show characters, it was the show, not the original toys, that have given us our memories of what looks "right" about the figures. This means that "show accurate" will always trump "toy accurate" when it comes to the Western beast wars figures.

Who the **** is "us"?! I dont mind argumentative discussion but I would rather you speak for yourself. I didnt have cable and thus I didnt watch the show much, only later. So to me, the toys were first. My favourite was Megatron because the toy was a big T-Rex. Also, kids played with their toys so they could have fond memories of that too.

Also, you lumping all G1 is incorrect. Starting in 86, the toys no longer came before, they were sold alongside the release of the film and subsequent episodes. There should be no distinction in your argument between G1 from 86 on and Beast Wars.

william-james88 wrote:Who the **** is "us"?! I dont mind argumentative discussion but I would rather you speak for yourself.

You're wasting your time, he's convinced that his opinion is the only one that's right and anyone that disagrees is wrong. I couldn't convince him that Generations Rhinox isn't a bad figure because it pulls more from the original toy than the cartoon and you won't be able to convince him that G1 and Beast Wars are examples of the same process.

Emerje

In the two years I've been involved with the forums here, I've really had to come to terms with the notion that those of us who see this world as, toy first are few and fare between. We all see the world through our own eyes.

Something poignant that JelZe wrote in regards to the RIBFIR debate:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:And that brought me to an interesting thought. It's not about which one is red and which one is blue, it's all about what medium has ultimate authority: the toy line, or the cartoon. Unfortunately, that is all a matter of opinion...

The good news is, neither point of view is right, or wrong. I guess?

I feel that whichever was the most popular depiction of a character is what is perceived as the "right" look for many fans, whether it's the comics, cartoons, video games or the toys themselves. I believe that a lot of fans would probably prefer the look of the cartoon first and foremost. While that's true for myself, I also prefer a hybrid look that blends the best of both worlds.

Oftentimes the toys have far more detail than the animated or drawn version of the characters, so cartoon accuracy is my preference with heads and overall bodies but with the level of detail seen in the toys (or if the Transformers were real world, but not the live action film franchise's version of that).

Masterpiece Inferno is one that comes to mind that missed out on having additional details on his body paneling, but they got the overall look right on the toy. As for Beast Wars, the cartoon look would be superior to me because the toys were inconsistent initially (mutant heads which were quickly phased out on new molds after the first few waves) and because that's how they've been prominently portrayed in various fiction. However, I do like the nods to the toys. I think Masterpiece Optimus Primal would be absolutely brilliant if he came with the mutant head as a mask to put over the traditional Optimus Primal head (or at least a swappable head altogether).

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. There's a word that is eluding me that describes when someone makes overstatements by using all-inclusive words when making a statement such as everyone, all fans, everybody, majority of fans, etc. False-consensus isn't the word I'm looking for, but it's close: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False-consensus_effect

Speaking of which, my use of the word "many" in the first paragraph of my post may possibly fall into that definition.

Seibertron wrote:There's a word that is eluding me that describes when someone makes overstatements by using all-inclusive words when making a statement such as everyone, all fans, everybody, majority of fans, etc. False-consensus isn't the word I'm looking for, but it's close: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False-consensus_effect

Perhaps "hyperbole"? Or "sweeping generalization"? One of those might be it.

I Personally go toy-first for G1 but fiction-first for just about everything else. Reason being that there are many wildly different takes on the same character in both design and character depending on which fictional route you take in G1 - for instance, Blaster and Sandstorm ended up being at completely opposite ends of the spectrum whether you go Cartoon or Marvel. So when you've got so many differing interpretations, it makes sense to me to go back to the origin point all of them are based on and derived from - the toys and their tech specs.

However, every other series doesn't quite do this. They either have one, definitive fiction - Beast Wars only really had the cartoon, unless for some reason you really liked those pack-in comics - or all fictional portrayals of the characters are the same, at least in design - for instance, the Armada Anime and Dreamwave Comics didn't have any real difference in how Red Alert looked. If in the next Generations line we were to get an Armada Red Alert based on the original toy, that would work for you whether you're a fan of the cartoon or the comics - or, of course, the toys. The same cannot be said in the instance of, say, G1 Galvatron; he looked wildly different between the Cartoon and any other portrayal. Sure, we just got an incredible Voyager Galvatron in Titans Return... but it won't quite work for you if you wanted something more akin to Marvel's portrayal of the character.

Kurona wrote:The same cannot be said in the instance of, say, G1 Galvatron; he looked wildly different between the Cartoon and any other portrayal. Sure, we just got an incredible Voyager Galvatron in Titans Return... but it won't quite work for you if you wanted something more akin to Marvel's portrayal of the character.

Though, Takara's lighter colors are closer to that end.

Seibertron wrote:I feel that whichever was the most popular depiction of a character is what is perceived as the "right" look for many fans, whether it's the comics, cartoons, video games or the toys themselves. I believe that a lot of fans would probably prefer the look of the cartoon first and foremost. While that's true for myself, I also prefer a hybrid look that blends the best of both worlds.

Oftentimes the toys have far more detail than the animated or drawn version of the characters, so cartoon accuracy is my preference with heads and overall bodies but with the level of detail seen in the toys (or if the Transformers were real world, but not the live action film franchise's version of that).

Masterpiece Inferno is one that comes to mind that missed out on having additional details on his body paneling, but they got the overall look right on the toy. As for Beast Wars, the cartoon look would be superior to me because the toys were inconsistent initially (mutant heads which were quickly phased out on new molds after the first few waves) and because that's how they've been prominently portrayed in various fiction. However, I do like the nods to the toys. I think Masterpiece Optimus Primal would be absolutely brilliant if he came with the mutant head as a mask to put over the traditional Optimus Primal head (or at least a swappable head altogether).

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. There's a word that is eluding me that describes when someone makes overstatements by using all-inclusive words when making a statement such as everyone, all fans, everybody, majority of fans, etc. False-consensus isn't the word I'm looking for, but it's close: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False-consensus_effect

Speaking of which, my use of the word "many" in the first paragraph of my post may possibly fall into that definition.

I do feel this is true, by a lot. Often I've noticed in fiction the popular marketed depiction is often considered the "right one" basically by The Powers That Be and what they choose to market in toy form and box art form is often the secondary version that looks different, but it is ultimately close to the mass market version in a few recognizable ways. Both representations compliment each other in the aspect the toy is meant to take design elements of the marketed version in the end while still being its own thing and the same thing simultaneously. The inconsistencies between Transformer designs between media though are the result of different universal streams, micro-continuities, and such now in the wider continuity though from what I've inferred from reading.

Take G1 Megatron here. Albeit a later design drawing that marriages the toy, box art, and the animated model, it is generally considered to be Megatron in the end even though most of us grew up with this being the most popular depiction and interpretation of Megatron next to the toy over the comics in a way. In the end, we all see the same character in a variety of different ways in how it is promoted between the marketing. They're just all unique due to a myriad of reasons.

The toys are not wrong though. They are different due to engineering reasons as well as cost reasons for mass production. It's easier to produce a simplistic toy over a complicated toy overall. Take RotF Leader Megatron, his 'bot mode is far different from the CGI model as his alt-mode. It's still accurate though for the character but not the accompanying fiction he goes with. In the end, all answers are correct. It's just us looking for a definitive answer for what's "right" in our minds to go along with it based on personal preference alone.

Also I think you're referencing the hasty generalization fallacy or something close within that category that primalxconvoy made. There isn't a legitimate and sufficient sample size to talk with every fan out there to find a consensus and there are multiple things to consider as well with things like fanon and personal canon to boot. Fandoms are offline and online things and anyone would have a sample bias to put up with if only sampling that population online.

Thinking about fallacies and the different types does show me it has been a while since I've thought about the specific kinds of fallacies out there actually. Probably more important now than ever to recognize these things as the US election is getting closer and the debates are active now.

With the Transformers Legends line as the home for Takara Tomy’s version of Japanese Titans Return toys, we now look back at the very first two toys of that line which were actually Beast Wars related rather than G1. This fits perfectly with our continuing Beast Wars Tuesday galleries, looking back on Beast Wars toys old and new and this pair of toys is a nice mixture of both. We now have images for Transformers Legends LG-01 Rattrap and LG-02 Optimus Primal.

LG-01 Rattrap was a new mold for the fan favourite Beast Wars character, and the most accurate interpretation of how the character appeared on the show, especially in robot mode since this Takara Tomy version has the show accurate red eyes on the rat face chest.

LG-02 Optimus Primal is a retool of the original 1996 Ultra toy with a new gorilla face/robot chest and robot head, more akin to how he looked like on the show in robot mode. This is not even the first time we have this retool since it was previously released in 2006 under Beast Wars Reborn. This LG-02 Optimus Primal uses darker colours for the fur than the previous release and while there wasn’t much different in terms of deco, this was another opportunity to own the sought after retool. The gallery has both version of the retool side by side, let us know which one you find more accurate to the animation model’s colours.

These two toys also came with the very first chapters of the ongoing Legends Comic, which has the line's first released figure, Rattrap, as the mascot and connects to the Japanese G1 continuity.

Transformers Legends Beast Convoy (150 images) - Ultra Class












Transformers Legends Rattrap (137 images) - Deluxe Class

Primal has such a good looking robot mode