Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

News Credits: 1 · by **Kuribohfett** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:03 pm

Very well thought out. I agree with you that Skids and Mudflap needed to do a lot more to redeem themselves simply to avoid being useless. THEY should've taken down Devastator themselves, from the inside out, instead of giving another another Con kill to the US Army.

by **Ballistic90** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:06 pm

Kuribohfett wrote:Very well thought out. I agree with you that Skids and Mudflap needed to do a lot more to redeem themselves simply to avoid being useless. THEY should've taken down Devastator themselves, from the inside out, instead of giving another another Con kill to the US Army.

The best part of the scene with Devastator is when he was coming together, that was awesome, and when he was about to eat Mudflap. Otherwise, his spot in the movie was a big letdown.

News Credits: 2 · by **Autobobby1** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:07 pm

Ballistic90 wrote:And there's also the fact that an enormous amount of the reviewers picked up immediately, even if they didn't have a huge breadth of knowledge on the subject, and even a lot of white people. This isn't just a few sensitive people, even the WRITERS acknowledged it. I mean, come on now.

1) Critics over-analyze EVERYTHING. Naturally they were offended by something mostly fabricated by their own imaginations.

2) Orci and Kurtzman didn't say they thought the twins were racist. They said they thought people would "write in about" Skidz's gold tooth. They were so vague that they could have meant the fans would hate their goofy appearances.

News Credits: 1 · by **Kuribohfett** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:13 pm

Very good point, Autobobby1, very true.

You know what SHOULD have happened, is that Skids should've seen his brother in danger, manned up, and went in after him. Together, the two of them could've disabled his body from the inside. Devy would be on his way to dismantle the pyramid, as seen, but they would be inside him. Hijinks would ensue, and at the crucial moment, prove themselves.

Granted, this probably would've killed several ILM people, but whatever.

by **Prime Riblet** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:15 pm

Burn wrote:Am I the only one (because I mentioned it before and no one caught onto it) that Jetfire was also "stereotyped" as an old fuddy duddy with a British accent?

I mean come on, the old fuddy duddy Brits were huge comedies back in the 60's and 70's, why isn't that brought up? Why isn't that considered racist?

seems like your point got breezed over. it is very true though.

by **Ballistic90** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:16 pm

TurbofireJames wrote:I understand, and respect what your saying. The term racist is thrown around a lot though.

rac·ism
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

I will agree that skids and mudflaps are problematic and make people uncomfortable. What is interesting though is that they are still autobots, and they show a lot of character in their battle against devastator. There is something novel about a character who is a "black stereotype" or seemingly of a lower socioeconomic status breaking the mold and showing a lot heart, compassion, and a very strong will when the chips are down. I studied oppression in media, so I dont disagree with your argument but i think this case is an interesting study and calling it racist outright does not do the complexity of the situation justice.

The first definition is the closest to what I'm talking about, and still, it's not exactly what I'm talking about, and it doesn't sound right. In fact, where that is used, it will even tell you that it's contested for that definition. It's the fact that of all the transformers, only four (wheelie, the twins, jetfire) spoke with any different inflection or accent, creating a group of 'others' which infers a form of superiority on the rest of the Transformers. They have 'quirks' that are varying in the intensity. Now, while you weren't saying this, I've heard the argument that the fact that they were painted Red and Green that they weren't 'black'. This is like saying that Jetfire wasn't Scottish because Scottish people don't fart parachutes or turn into jets.

by **Ballistic90** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:17 pm

Autobobby1 wrote:
Ballistic90 wrote:And there's also the fact that an enormous amount of the reviewers picked up immediately, even if they didn't have a huge breadth of knowledge on the subject, and even a lot of white people. This isn't just a few sensitive people, even the WRITERS acknowledged it. I mean, come on now.

1) Critics over-analyze EVERYTHING. Naturally they were offended by something mostly fabricated by their own imaginations.

2) Orci and Kurtzman didn't say they thought the twins were racist. They said they thought people would "write in about" Skidz's gold tooth. They were so vague that they could have meant the fans would hate their goofy appearances.

Also, the people coming out the theaters saying that exact same thing is further proof. Does EVERYONE over analyze it? It could be that I live in Philadelphia, but most people could see that.

News Credits: 8 · by **NuclearConvoy** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:19 pm

Caelus wrote:
Dr. Heavy B wrote:I can understand critisizim over the appearance, and the high pitch style of talk...but the things they say, I've met more white guys who talk like that

Given their asymmetrical deformed faces, their incompetence, and their exaggerated dialogue... I thought they were supposed to be inbred southeastern trailer-park white-trash posers.

When I first saw them carrying on I thought "black", and then realized that the fact I jumped to that was actually what was really racist, especially when they were so much more like 50% of the white guys I knew back home. Of course, I found those guys to be offensive in and of themselves...

Yeah, I kinda have to agree with that.
Not every aspect, but a lot of it is like a lot of white folk I know.

by **g2grimmy64** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:39 pm

Autobobby1 wrote:Look at those green and orange alien robots! They act vaguely like black stereotypes, therefore Michael Bay must have maliciously made them act like that because he hates black people! It's okay when the Wayans brothers make a movie explicitly black stereotypes because they're black, but when there's a vague hint of two secondary characters being stereotypes in a movie by a non-black man, it's racism! It all makes perfect sense now!

By Jove, I think he's got it!

News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:12 am

Autobobby1 wrote:
Burn wrote:I mean come on, the old fuddy duddy Brits were huge comedies back in the 60's and 70's, why isn't that brought up? Why isn't that considered racist?

Because it's a lot easier for critics to call out a movie for being racist against black people since that's the most common form of racism.

And there lies the root of the problem. Racism apparently only applies to certain skin colours.

I can't count the number of times i've been called a "white ****". Mind you, I quickly turned around and called them "black *******" and then we all laughed it off. That's what I get for going to school and growing up with people from different cultures and all of us not giving a toss about the differences we all had!

by **Dr. GM1983** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:49 am

I know I dont post on here much anymore but I just cant beleive how blown out of proportion this has gotten. I'm black, or should I say African American to be more p.c.? I live in Bronx NYC where you see 7 out of 10 people with grillz or a few gold and even platinum teeth. Many speak the same way the twins speak, hell even I do when I'm chillin with my freinds.

So when I went to the theater to watch the movie with the patrons being predominately black, puerto rican, and everything in-between and we all laughed our arshes off at the twins did that make us bad people for propagating the stereotypical image of the afore mentioned "races" to those who are not of those "races"?

Come on give me a break...its a friggin movie get over it. Its funny, annoying, but funny. I thought Wheelie was worse, made my youngest child cover his eyes when he started humping the "warrior goddess" leg. Wanna see stereotyping? Watch Hollywood Shuffle....funny as hell and directed by Robert Townsend (who by the way is black as well).

PEACE OUT Y'ALL!!!

News Credits: 5 · by **5150 Cruiser** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:41 am

Ballistic90 wrote:I'm going to break this down to you why this is racist. This is with information from my fiancee who is an African American woman with a history major and a lot of knowledge of the history of Black history, including lynchings and black stereotypes. The big 'ears', big teeth and illiterate aspect of these characters are the spitting image of the 'Sambo' stereotype created back around the late 1800s, during the Jim Crow times, to affect social control on African Americans. Having people believe in these stereotypes as being the 'norm' would create a fear or distaste in the white population of the black population, keeping African Americans subjugated even though they are no longer slaves.

Mudflap and Skids had these characteristics, and Skids even had a gold tooth with some symbol on it (reflecting stereotypical black rappers), and they also acted very stupid. Now, no other robots had these physical characteristics, or were stupid. So by making these the only stupid robots, they were basically saying that 'everyone with this characteristics are stupid'. Considering that it's a stereotype of African Americans (a WELL DOCUMENTED ONE, mind you), it's like saying that African Americans are stupid. Now, it could be either that Michael Bay wasn't aware he was doing this, that he was really stupid (ok, that's a valid concern if you think about it), but it is very suspicious that they all came together into these two characters. Not to mention that they had next to no redeeming characteristics or abilities lends even more credence to the whole racism problem. They had scenes where they did something sort of important, but they existed to basically stand around and be dumb. That's the problem.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that what is the biggest problem is the combination of the actions, speech and physical characteristics is why it's racist. If they looked exactly the same, but were clearly not stupid (like... strategists or geniuses or something), and didn't speak in ebonics, no one would even know what to think of them.

This pisses me off to no end.....
All this tells me (and this is coming from an African American male) is that YOU AND YOUR FIANCE' ARE THE ONES THAT ARE RACIST!!!! All this posts tells me is that you are the one that associates big ears, gold teeth, and stupid dim witted behaviour with African Americans. Not bay. You know what i saw when i watched Skids and MudFlap? Two immature green and orange [i]ROBOTS[/i] Cause that's what they were. If anything, all this proves is that dim witted, immature, wanna-be gangsta attitudes know no bounds in terms of race. whether that be the human race, or an alien race.
The more people begin to nit pick stupid **** like this as being "Racist" the further we are from truly becoming a racist free society. I know that will probably never happen, but the more people (especially from the African American community) continue to associate this type of behavior with themselves, how do we expect the rest of the world not to?

by **Jetstorm92210** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:53 am

If Skidz and Mudflap were supposed to be racist stereotypes, they would have made them Decepticons. But no, they're Autobots, and they combine into an Ice Cream truck, I don't see anything wrong with that.

News Credits: 1 · by **Didicos** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:02 am

I found the twins really funny and I don't think that their style and character represent black people in general.It's just a lifestyle followed by people of every colour,"race",religion etc and in ROTF we saw a comical view of it.I don't think it's stereotyping.
Remember Ironhide in the first movie?He wanted to kill Sam's parents when they started pissing him off.I don't think that anyone,after seeing that, thought that all soldiers are weapon maniacs who tend to kill everyone who stand in their way.That would be stereotyping too.
We should also think that Megatron and the Fallen try to elimante other spieces of life for their own "race" survival and consider other spieces(eg humans) inferior(which is a true racistic aspect).So,we could think that in ROTF racism is connected with tha bad guys.I don't say that it was an anti-racist film,but every coin has two sides.
So, I suggest that we should all stop chasing ghosts and try not to be so suspicious against everything.
We are all brothers afterall and we should try fighting against racism in every aspect of our life and not by judging some funny characters in a movie.

by **Autobot Hero** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:39 am

I think people are reading too much into this movie...

by **Ballistic90** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:08 am

5150 Cruiser wrote:
Ballistic90 wrote:I'm going to break this down to you why this is racist. This is with information from my fiancee who is an African American woman with a history major and a lot of knowledge of the history of Black history, including lynchings and black stereotypes. The big 'ears', big teeth and illiterate aspect of these characters are the spitting image of the 'Sambo' stereotype created back around the late 1800s, during the Jim Crow times, to affect social control on African Americans. Having people believe in these stereotypes as being the 'norm' would create a fear or distaste in the white population of the black population, keeping African Americans subjugated even though they are no longer slaves.

Mudflap and Skids had these characteristics, and Skids even had a gold tooth with some symbol on it (reflecting stereotypical black rappers), and they also acted very stupid. Now, no other robots had these physical characteristics, or were stupid. So by making these the only stupid robots, they were basically saying that 'everyone with this characteristics are stupid'. Considering that it's a stereotype of African Americans (a WELL DOCUMENTED ONE, mind you), it's like saying that African Americans are stupid. Now, it could be either that Michael Bay wasn't aware he was doing this, that he was really stupid (ok, that's a valid concern if you think about it), but it is very suspicious that they all came together into these two characters. Not to mention that they had next to no redeeming characteristics or abilities lends even more credence to the whole racism problem. They had scenes where they did something sort of important, but they existed to basically stand around and be dumb. That's the problem.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that what is the biggest problem is the combination of the actions, speech and physical characteristics is why it's racist. If they looked exactly the same, but were clearly not stupid (like... strategists or geniuses or something), and didn't speak in ebonics, no one would even know what to think of them.

This pisses me off to no end.....
All this tells me (and this is coming from an African American male) is that YOU AND YOUR FIANCE' ARE THE ONES THAT ARE RACIST!!!! All this posts tells me is that you are the one that associates big ears, gold teeth, and stupid dim witted behaviour with African Americans. Not bay. You know what i saw when i watched Skids and MudFlap? Two immature green and orange [i]ROBOTS[/i] Cause that's what they were. If anything, all this proves is that dim witted, immature, wanna-be gangsta attitudes know no bounds in terms of race. whether that be the human race, or an alien race.
The more people begin to nit pick stupid **** like this as being "Racist" the further we are from truly becoming a racist free society. I know that will probably never happen, but the more people (especially from the African American community) continue to associate this type of behavior with themselves, how do we expect the rest of the world not to?

I'm sorry, but I'm associating their behavior and appearance with well entrenched and defined stereotypes created in the late 1800's stereotypes of the 'coon' and 'sambo' during the Jim Crow days. These were used for social control, and they meet all the criteria, EXCEPT for the skin color itself. A 'coon' was shiftless, lazy, selfish, stupid and would often fight with other 'coons'. That fits these two robots to a 't'. Mixed with the big buck teeth, a gold tooth, and big ears and they are nothing but a racial stereotype. THAT is my point.

News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:27 am

Ballistic90 wrote:I'm sorry, but I'm associating their behavior and appearance with well entrenched and defined stereotypes created in the late 1800's stereotypes of the 'coon' and 'sambo' during the Jim Crow days.

The 21st century called, they'd like you to join it.

by **Blastback** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:36 am

The thing that really bugged me about the twins was their apperance. I cringed every time I had to look at them, not because I felt it was racist, but because I thought they were just really ugly. But listening to their dialoge and voices, they almost seemed like redneck who were trying to be "black" to me. I admit I generaly found them rather annoyong and really wish they had been done diffrently, but just because they were more iritating than humerous to me. Though they had their moments.

What I really wish is that they had been focused on a little less so we could have seen some more of the other bots. Spread the charaterisation around you know.

But the for the kids thing is bullshit. Those were not kid friendly charaters.

by **Primus C-00** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:03 am

Wigga or Homeboy the Twins are just yet more damning evidence that flashy effects, jock humour, and clusterbombed poorly aimed G1 references are no substitute for character development or narrative substance.

But then what else could we expect from Revenge of the Fail-Line.

by **Obiprime** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:12 am

The gold tooth was to much.

News Credits: 1 · by **Blackstreak** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:19 am

I guess we can look at gangstas now and laugh as they 'put a cap in our asses'. :lol:

Whether they are stereotyped or not I thought they were hilarious.

by **SunScourge** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:45 am

Blackstreak wrote:I guess we can look at gangstas now and laugh as they 'put a cap in our asses'. Whether they are stereotyped or not I thought they were hilarious.

I didn't find the robots racist or stereotyped at all. Me and my 5 friends/Mom/Dad/my wife/son/and half of the other black people in the thearter didn't find anything racist about it because we don't act like that personally and when did acting one way determine what race you are. P.S. Mudflap and Skids skin color was Red and Green. Those are the people would should be upset the people with red and green skin color. LOL!

News Credits: 3 · by **Serpent O - R** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:42 am

"I'm illiterate, dumb and fight a lot over stupid things. I look like hell, but it's funny and if it's funny, it's ok. If you have a problem with me, I'll use my crazy squeaky voice to intimidate you before I have to beat you."

Is anyone concerned by the fact the our kids imitate their favorite things? Isn't that what the issue should be here?

I mean, I can't even recall how many times I've seen on these boards people going at each other over toy designs [myself included] just to be trumped by the all powerful, "It's a Kids movie to sell toys."

Well, your "Kids" movie is here, I hope they enjoy it... I also hope you enjoy trying to explain to them why it's important to know how to read and that violence is always a last resort to defend yourself and your family... Not something to do when you want the green shirt.

News Credits: 1 · by **Kuribohfett** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:59 am

Serpent O - R wrote:"I'm illiterate, dumb and fight a lot over stupid things. I look like hell, but it's funny and if it's funny, it's ok. If you have a problem with me, I'll use my crazy squeaky voice to intimidate you before I have to beat you."

Is anyone concerned by the fact the our kids imitate their favorite things? Isn't that what the issue should be here?

I mean, I can't even recall how many times I've seen on these boards people going at each other over toy designs [myself included] just to be trumped by the all powerful, "It's a Kids movie to sell toys."

Well, your "Kids" movie is here, I hope they enjoy it... I also hope you enjoy trying to explain to them why it's important to know how to read and that violence is always a last resort to defend yourself and your family... Not something to do when you want the green shirt.

While it is important to talk to your kids, it's also important to remember no one under 13 should be taken to see this movie without consideration. Also, the whole "illterate" this has reached crazy proportions. Never once did either of them say they know how to read. They didn't LIKE to read, like half the kids in America. Not to mention NO AUTOBOT knew how to read those symbols. Was the bit handled poorly? Perhaps, but they were not illiterate and I don't think kids will come to that conclusion on their own.

In fact, I simply think they were not on screen long enough to register to most kids. While I'm sure this isn't strictly true, I have been monitoring the toy aisle as I hunt like every day, and I also am curious about how the TFs are doing. And no kid, not one I've seen, has given a rat's patoot about Skids or Mudflap. Not one. It's aaaall Bumblebee, just like it was with the first one. After that, believe or not, is Ironhide coupled with Prime and Ravage. Heck, I've even seen a kid ask for Barricade, and not these two.

by **Phenotype** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:27 am

I, like many others, really feel that this whole "racism" thing has gone too far.

I'd like to quote Counterpunch again because I feel that his statement from another thread sums it up really well:

Urban culture grows out of economic status and place, not race and ethnicity.

The Twins were not "Black" stereotypes, they were Urban Culture/Hip-Hop stereotypes, and as many others already pointed out Hip-Hop culture is not exclusive to African Americans.

As for their physical appearances, racial stereotypes created in the 1800's have no relevance here, they are outdated. So much has changed since that time period, could one argue that people with mohawks are being racially insensitive to Native Americans? Please.

The gold tooth? That's another Hip-Hop stereotype, not Black.

The big ears? Honestly I felt they were attempting to convey the image of a dog. The dumb but lovable pup that we all can't help but laugh at.

Also, I think it's fair to say that nobody is interested in being "taught a lesson" on the internet. People are convicted in their beliefs and while I think it can be worthwhile to discuss important issues on public forums the idea of changing someone's mind and having them admit you were right and they were wrong is almost never ever going to happen. Charging in with a stack of links and references in an attempt to "educate" people is never a good way to get your point across.