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They said the same thing about Jazz. "Which Autobot did they kill? The black one!"

*scratches head* I thought Ironhide was the black one.

This is a question of culture, not race or skin color.

If they looked exactly the same, but were clearly not stupid (like... strategists or geniuses or something), and didn't speak in ebonics, no one would even know what to think of them.

So we'll just ignore Sergeant Eps I guess.

Booda wrote:They said the same thing about Jazz. "Which Autobot did they kill? The black one!"

*scratches head* I thought Ironhide was the black one.

This is a question of culture, not race or skin color.

If they looked exactly the same, but were clearly not stupid (like... strategists or geniuses or something), and didn't speak in ebonics, no one would even know what to think of them.

So we'll just ignore Sergeant Eps I guess.

It is a question of race, as, again, race isn't just skin color. These characteristics that I pointed out were applied to those specific robots, making them the 'black' stereotype. Robots have different colors than people do, but they are obviously the closest to the 'black' stereotype. Strangely enough, the black human characters didn't abide really by the typical stereotypes of black people, but then again there was what, 1 important black man in the whole movie?

UPDATE!: Here's a fun link. Apparently, Orci and Kurtzman, the writers for the movie, were offended by the characters.
http://www.scifiscoop.com/news/the-tran ... sm-debate/

Oh for goodness sakes. They're robots, and they're awesome. I am so damn sick of these critics. There was one on New Zealand TV the other day saying ROTF had "major plot holes" (which ok, it had one or two plot holes, but not lots of major plot holes as the retard pointed out). Although it was funny for her to point out that Transformers 3 was already underway with creation, which we all know is 110% false. But these "critics" are nothing more than a bunch of idiots that sit around and have a go at movies because they've seen every other movie ever made, and so each new movie never excites them.

Mykltron wrote:

Kuribohfett wrote:I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but I don't think it's racist at all. The so called "stereotype" is so over blown it's not realistic

And what about the anti-semetic cartoons published by the nazis in the second world war? By your standards that was also not racist.

You are honestly going to compare propaganda to promote genocide to what is, at worst case scenario, a director being an idiot? That's ridiculous, and a completely different situation. Perhaps I misspoke with that one part of my post, but I believe my point remains as others have said in this thread. Also, I researched the whole "sambo" thing for my defense, and I personally don't see any similarity. Personally, after a third viewing I feel the only leg any one has to stand on is MAYBE Skids' face. Which, yeah, is a pretty stupid decision, but it's a pretty big stretch. Although it is true that perhaps if they did something else then it would be better. But realize that no matter how much I loved the movie I never said Bay was a good director.

TCJJ wrote:Oh for goodness sakes. They're robots, and they're awesome. I am so damn sick of these critics. There was one on New Zealand TV the other day saying ROTF had "major plot holes" (which ok, it had one or two plot holes, but not lots of major plot holes as the retard pointed out). Although it was funny for her to point out that Transformers 3 was already underway with creation, which we all know is 110% false. But these "critics" are nothing more than a bunch of idiots that sit around and have a go at movies because they've seen every other movie ever made, and so each new movie never excites them.

I'm sorry, but without the racist BS, this movie is still pretty bad. What's worse is that you're saying that this is the best we should expect? They added so many new characters and dropped them as background almost immediately. I was annoyed and bored at the 'I love you' conversations between Sam and Mikalea, almost fell asleep when they were exploring Egypt, and just... infuriated that they added in characters like Sideswipe, Jolt and the Arcee motorcycle robots that should be VERY interesting characters, but drops them almost immediately. There's a lot more, and the movie does have a lot of plot holes, like if the matrix of leadership was destroyed, then wouldn't the Fallen just least the Earth? He couldn't 'earn' it anyways, not by the movie logic. Also, there are a LOT of stars out there. If it was such a problem getting the machine on Earth to work, why not go to another star system? Then there was the inconsistent characterizations of Starscream, Megatron, and more. Just... why shouldn't we demand more? The Dark Knight was so much more than Revenge of the Fallen was, and I wanted that level of quality.

And Kuribohfett, you don't see it because you don't have to. It doesn't affect you personally, so you let it pass. I'm sorry, but when I look at stills of the twins faces, you can easily see it.

I speak jive.

Dr. Heavy B wrote:I can understand critisizim over the appearance, and the high pitch style of talk...but the things they say, I've met more white guys who talk like that

Given their asymmetrical deformed faces, their incompetence, and their exaggerated dialogue... I thought they were supposed to be inbred southeastern trailer-park white-trash posers.

When I first saw them carrying on I thought "black", and then realized that the fact I jumped to that was actually what was really racist, especially when they were so much more like 50% of the white guys I knew back home. Of course, I found those guys to be offensive in and of themselves...

Caelus wrote:

Dr. Heavy B wrote:I can understand critisizim over the appearance, and the high pitch style of talk...but the things they say, I've met more white guys who talk like that

Given their asymmetrical deformed faces, their incompetence, and their exaggerated dialogue... I thought they were supposed to be inbred southeastern trailer-park white-trash posers.

When I first saw them carrying on I thought "black", and then realized that the fact I jumped to that was actually what was really racist, especially when they were so much more like 50% of the white guys I knew back home. Of course, I found those guys to be offensive in and of themselves...

That's not necessarily racist to think it's a black stereotype, because a lot of what made up the twins was derived FROM black stereotypes, but it's racist to think that all black people are like that.

Ballistic90 wrote:The big 'ears', big teeth and illiterate aspect of these characters are the spitting image of the 'Sambo' stereotype created back around the late 1800s, during the Jim Crow times, to affect social control on African Americans.

http://www.amazon.com/Ren-Stimpy-Show-Seasons-Half-ish/dp/B0009CTV4U/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1246158314&sr=1-3

While that may have been true a hundred years ago, you need to look at it in context today. Not every instance of "big ears, big teeth and stupid," is a black stereotype. Even putting urban slang in the mix doesn't necessarily imply blackness, since every video game, movie, TV show, and song today that's trying to be cool and hip uses that language.

In cartoons, like the Ren and Stimpy I linked above, when the artist wants to depict "stupid," the first thing they do is add big ears and big teeth. Skids and Mudflap are basically cartoons, so their look isn't surprising at all.

Ballistic90 wrote:And Kuribohfett, you don't see it because you don't have to. It doesn't affect you personally, so you let it pass. I'm sorry, but when I look at stills of the twins faces, you can easily see it.

First off, you don't know me from the next person on the internet, so you can't say that it doesn't affect me personally.

Second, racism affects everyone personally, as a human. So I don't just let racism "pass." To me, it's fairly offensive that you would suggest that I would do that. Just because I don't see it here doesn't mean I ignore it elsewhere.

I could look at a tree and see a danish if I tried hard enough. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying that the fact that this issue is not clear cut proves this isn't a simple case of "Song of the South" racism. There's a good case that it's not there at all.

I heard about this. Personally it gave each robot a certain character and that made it better. We live in a world of stereotyping and we have to overcome it. Michael Bay shouldn't have to defend this "Robo-Racial" issue. Excellent movie and excellent characters! Thanks for giving the nation something fun to look forward during hard times!

karellan wrote:

Ballistic90 wrote:The big 'ears', big teeth and illiterate aspect of these characters are the spitting image of the 'Sambo' stereotype created back around the late 1800s, during the Jim Crow times, to affect social control on African Americans.

http://www.amazon.com/Ren-Stimpy-Show-Seasons-Half-ish/dp/B0009CTV4U/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1246158314&sr=1-3

While that may have been true a hundred years ago, you need to look at it in context today. Not every instance of "big ears, big teeth and stupid," is a black stereotype. Even putting urban slang in the mix doesn't necessarily imply blackness, since every video game, movie, TV show, and song today that's trying to be cool and hip uses that language.

In cartoons, like the Ren and Stimpy I linked above, when the artist wants to depict "stupid," the first thing they do is add big ears and big teeth. Skids and Mudflap are basically cartoons, so their look isn't surprising at all.

The fact that 'other people are doing it' doesn't excuse it or explain it away at all. In fact, you could be point out that a surprising number of cartoons over the years have been racist, which is probably more true than anyone is willing to admit. You're also forgetting the gold tooth that kind of pushes it way beyond that train of thought. Gold teeth are associated with rappers more than any other group.


"First off, you don't know me from the next person on the internet, so you can't say that it doesn't affect me personally.

Second, racism affects everyone personally, as a human. So I don't just let racism "pass." To me, it's fairly offensive that you would suggest that I would do that. Just because I don't see it here doesn't mean I ignore it elsewhere.

I could look at a tree and see a danish if I tried hard enough. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying that the fact that this issue is not clear cut proves this isn't a simple case of "Song of the South" racism. There's a good case that it's not there at all."

First, I can tell that you are a white man by what you just said. To you, it's theoretical. To others, it's real life. It doesn't affect everyone the same way. You want to see how it affects people? Here. Let me help you REALLY understand.

http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/caricature/
http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/men.htm
http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/newforms/more/
http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/newforms/
http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/cartoons/

Although I will note that it's more 'big lips' generally in these examples, big teeth is also a big part of it.


"I heard about this. Personally it gave each robot a certain character and that made it better. We live in a world of stereotyping and we have to overcome it. Michael Bay shouldn't have to defend this "Robo-Racial" issue. Excellent movie and excellent characters! Thanks for giving the nation something fun to look forward during hard times! "

A dumb black stereotype isn't a 'flavor'. He should have to defend it. Along with the rest of the crap in the movie.

[quote="Ballistic90"]


"First off, you don't know me from the next person on the internet, so you can't say that it doesn't affect me personally.

Second, racism affects everyone personally, as a human. So I don't just let racism "pass." To me, it's fairly offensive that you would suggest that I would do that. Just because I don't see it here doesn't mean I ignore it elsewhere.

I could look at a tree and see a danish if I tried hard enough. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying that the fact that this issue is not clear cut proves this isn't a simple case of "Song of the South" racism. There's a good case that it's not there at all."

First, I can tell that you are a white man by what you just said. To you, it's theoretical. To others, it's real life. It doesn't affect everyone the same way. You want to see how it affects people? Here. Let me help you REALLY understand.

http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/caricature/
http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/men.htm
http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/newforms/more/
http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/newforms/
http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/cartoons/

You have got to be kidding me. Talk about hubris. I never said it was theoretical at all. Never even implied it. You made a judgement based on your interpretation of what you think I said, which is pretty damn bad on its own. And I got news for you, college professor, I don't think any of those look like the twins at all. So your attempts to "educate" me and help me "understand" have failed. Although I'm sure you just think I'm not looking at it properly, the way you do. You think I don't know how hurtful it is to people? You think I'm that insensitive? Shows what you know. Stop making judgements based on me for defending what is, in my mind, not racist. Or am I just one of the affected masses to you?

Kuribohfett wrote:

Ballistic90 wrote:

"First off, you don't know me from the next person on the internet, so you can't say that it doesn't affect me personally.

Second, racism affects everyone personally, as a human. So I don't just let racism "pass." To me, it's fairly offensive that you would suggest that I would do that. Just because I don't see it here doesn't mean I ignore it elsewhere.

I could look at a tree and see a danish if I tried hard enough. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying that the fact that this issue is not clear cut proves this isn't a simple case of "Song of the South" racism. There's a good case that it's not there at all."

First, I can tell that you are a white man by what you just said. To you, it's theoretical. To others, it's real life. It doesn't affect everyone the same way. You want to see how it affects people? Here. Let me help you REALLY understand.

http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/caricature/
http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/men.htm
http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/newforms/more/
http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/newforms/
http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/cartoons/

You have got to be kidding me. Talk about hubris. I never said it was theoretical at all. Never even implied it. You made a judgement based on your interpretation of what you think I said, which is pretty damn bad on its own. And I got news for you, college professor, I don't think any of those look like the twins at all. So your attempts to "educate" me and help me "understand" have failed. Although I'm sure you just think I'm not looking at it properly, the way you do. You think I don't know how hurtful it is to people? You think I'm that insensitive? Shows what you know. Stop making judgements based on me for defending what is, in my mind, not racist. Or am I just one of the affected masses to you?

Considering that you just posted back this fast, it's obvious you just looked at the pictures and didn't actually read the first, and most important, link. So... what do you have to argue with? That you know more about racism than people that study it? That you don't want to have to read up on it at all? I don't talk about rocket science because I haven't read anything on it.

Actually, I did. Nice to know you made another judgement because you think I'm stupid. And once again, how do you know what I know about racism and what I don't? Answer is, you don't. Just because I read your link doesn't mean I have to agree with you, in fact it furthers my opinion that the Twins are just stupid designs and not racist.

You're too pompous and high on your own degree to listen to other people's opinions, so maybe you shouldn't be on a public forum. No one here is defending racism.

At least in the Spanish dubbed version I saw, no character sounds the most remotely racist (One of the twins (or both) happens to be dubbed by the guy who voices Donatello in TMNT, the main character in Bleach, one guy from Naruto (Gaara)). The only thing objectionable left in the movie are the sex jokes (Even Wheelie saying bitch is cut!).

There's nothing to worry about here. People are just being too sensitive. Hell, a black voice actor was one of the twins.

Skidz and Mudflap were my favorite characters of the film. Their dialogue just flowed, and they were pretty funny.

Kuribohfett wrote:Actually, I did. Nice to know you made another judgement because you think I'm stupid. And once again, how do you know what I know about racism and what I don't? Answer is, you don't. Just because I read your link doesn't mean I have to agree with you, in fact it furthers my opinion that the Twins are just stupid designs and not racist.

You're too pompous and high on your own degree to listen to other people's opinions, so maybe you shouldn't be on a public forum. No one here is defending racism.

You're the pompous one. First, that link had about an hour of reading material. Did you skim through it? How about you PROVE it? Define the 'coon' stereotype. I'm waiting. You can find it somewhere else, I don't care, but until you can tell me what that is, then you don't know near enough about racial stereotypes to even defend yourself at this point. Do yourself a favor, and either stop, or read enough on this.

And yes, it is a problem when people put this crap into a movie.

I finally saw the movie today. I enjoyed it. I am an African-American male who studied media driven oppression as the focus of my communication major at Denison University (granville, ohio).

The argument that the characters in question are racist is false. They are problematic but not racist. There are negative portrayals of all races in these films especially white people. The issue with the negative black stereotype in the movie (we can call it the poor socioeconomic stereotype- not able to read or speak well) is that there are very few or zero positive images to counter the negative ones. When you see a white person portrayed poorly you will see a white hero (or genius, or middle class citizen), but minorities are type cast into stereotypical roles all the time in media and they are not counter balanced with positive images.

All that said, I found skids and mudflap to be funny and well timed in their comedic actions. They were deliberate characters, Bay made them. It was not malicious in intent, but it is problematic none the less. The issue is perpetuating stereotypes that lay the underlying seeds of oppression. Also, never say its just a movie. I work in advertising now, and these images and messages are deliberate and powerful. The Chevy Camaro is selling like crazy thanks to this movie, clearly its images affect people. Portrayals of characters on the screen do impact people. All that said, really enjoyed the movie. I found the violence more problematic to the kids seeing the film, much more so than the characterizations of the robots.

Am I the only one (because I mentioned it before and no one caught onto it) that Jetfire was also "stereotyped" as an old fuddy duddy with a British accent?

I mean come on, the old fuddy duddy Brits were huge comedies back in the 60's and 70's, why isn't that brought up? Why isn't that considered racist?

Burn wrote:Am I the only one (because I mentioned it before and no one caught onto it) that Jetfire was also "stereotyped" as an old fuddy duddy with a British accent?

I mean come on, the old fuddy duddy Brits were huge comedies back in the 60's and 70's, why isn't that brought up? Why isn't that considered racist?

That is very true too. It's actually a Scottish accent, to be precise. He's still portrayed better than the twins because he had redeeming characteristics, like his sense of duty and pride, and self sacrifice.

"You know what my father was? He was a wheel. The first wheel! You know what he turned into? Nothing! But he did so with pride!"

I think it is a type of racism, but I don't think it's as painful as the twins.

Burn wrote:I mean come on, the old fuddy duddy Brits were huge comedies back in the 60's and 70's, why isn't that brought up? Why isn't that considered racist?

Because it's a lot easier for critics to call out a movie for being racist against black people since that's the most common form of racism.

As for the twins being useless, I couldn't have been the only one who laughed his/her ass off when one of the twins (I forget which) said he was like a ninja as he hung from a ledge.

TurbofireJames wrote:I finally saw the movie today. I enjoyed it. I am an African-American male who studied media driven oppression as the focus of my communication major at Denison University (granville, ohio).

The argument that the characters in question are racist is false. They are problematic but not racist. There are negative portrayals of all races in these films especially white people. The issue with the negative black stereotype in the movie (we can call it the poor socioeconomic stereotype- not able to read or speak well) is that there are very few or zero positive images to counter the negative ones. When you see a white person portrayed poorly you will see a white hero (or genius, or middle class citizen), but minorities are type cast into stereotypical roles all the time in media and they are not counter balanced with positive images.

All that said, I found skids and mudflap to be funny and well timed in their comedic actions. They were deliberate characters, Bay made them. It was not malicious in intent, but it is problematic none the less. The issue is perpetuating stereotypes that lay the underlying seeds of oppression. Also, never say its just a movie. I work in advertising now, and these images and messages are deliberate and powerful. The Chevy Camaro is selling like crazy thanks to this movie, clearly its images affect people. Portrayals of characters on the screen do impact people. All that said, really enjoyed the movie. I found the violence more problematic to the kids seeing the film, much more so than the characterizations of the robots.

I'm still saying that the twins are racist, because they fit the stereotypes of 'sambo' and 'coon' way too much to be coincidence. And there's also the fact that an enormous amount of the reviewers picked up immediately, even if they didn't have a huge breadth of knowledge on the subject, and even a lot of white people. This isn't just a few sensitive people, even the WRITERS acknowledged it. I mean, come on now.

TurbofireJames, Well said. Bravo. I couldn't agree more.

I understand, and respect what your saying. The term racist is thrown around a lot though.

rac·ism
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

I will agree that skids and mudflaps are problematic and make people uncomfortable. What is interesting though is that they are still autobots, and they show a lot of character in their battle against devastator. There is something novel about a character who is a "black stereotype" or seemingly of a lower socioeconomic status breaking the mold and showing a lot heart, compassion, and a very strong will when the chips are down. I studied oppression in media, so I dont disagree with your argument but i think this case is an interesting study and calling it racist outright does not do the complexity of the situation justice.