Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

shajaki wrote:

RiddlerJ wrote:If The Botcon people were smart, they'd do a version of Exhaust out of the Generations Wheeljack mold.

Hasbro is the one getting the blunt of the pressure from PM. I doubt they'll ever have a hand in an Exhaust type figure again unless the homage is so far removed that it loses most of its meaning

I'm curious to know if the ruling applies to "Toys and Games" only, or at the very least any category which has children exclusively as a target audience (which would exclude "Adult Collectibles"), or basically any type of merchandise category.

We really need someone with a Law Degree here on the boards

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

shajaki wrote:

RiddlerJ wrote:If The Botcon people were smart, they'd do a version of Exhaust out of the Generations Wheeljack mold.

Hasbro is the one getting the blunt of the pressure from PM. I doubt they'll ever have a hand in an Exhaust type figure again unless the homage is so far removed that it loses most of its meaning

I'm curious to know if the ruling applies to "Toys and Games" only, or at the very least any category which has children exclusively as a target audience (which would exclude "Adult Collectibles"), or basically any type of merchandise category.

We really need someone with a Law Degree here on the boards

Just because somebody is a lawyer doesn't mean they work in this kind of law, which involves a couple of different issues. We need a lawyer with specialized knowledge of import laws, international trade law and of course, domestic commercial law.

As far as I'm concerned, ratedX is pretty much right about the legal ownership. This is way less about laws, and more about Phillip Morris not being even asked for their trademark...which means no money to them for something they know will sit on American shelves (at home). If they had any real legal recourse in Japan, Exhaust would have been DOA off break. They could not block the production, so they go after the distribution.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

shajaki wrote:

RiddlerJ wrote:If The Botcon people were smart, they'd do a version of Exhaust out of the Generations Wheeljack mold.

Hasbro is the one getting the blunt of the pressure from PM. I doubt they'll ever have a hand in an Exhaust type figure again unless the homage is so far removed that it loses most of its meaning

I'm curious to know if the ruling applies to "Toys and Games" only, or at the very least any category which has children exclusively as a target audience (which would exclude "Adult Collectibles"), or basically any type of merchandise category.

We really need someone with a Law Degree here on the boards

Again, I will say, this is not a blanket ruling that established a law, but a civil case settlement that five very large tobacco companies, including Philip Morris, are bound to abide by the terms of. They have basically permanent legal staff that aggressively pursue and shut down anything that might even remotely look like a PM endorsement of marketing practices that are forbidden by the MSA, often using copyright/trademark issues to pursue this. Typically, the threat alone will make anything go away, and for good. It's a US civil matter, so within the confines of Japan this thing is fine, but for companies like Hasbro that are more or less global, it's an issue, so anywhere that was going to get these things in distributed from Hasbro Asia (or any other subsidiary of Hasbro) won't. It's also rumored that Takara Tomy did a very limited run of these due to only really needing to meet demand for their domestic market.

Found some sweet new pics

Bwahahahahaha... dat bio.

It does make me sad knowing that the figure was only altered because of the Hasbro Asia release that never happened in the end and Takara Tomy got screwed out of an accurate release because of it. If this had all played out earlier we'd have an unmodified paint, but PM had to wait until the last minute to screw with us.

The coin was likely already made since the figure was canceled so close to release. I wonder if Hasbro Asia will try for an even more altered deco like ash gray or something so they don't entirely miss out.

Emerje

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Rated X wrote:Whats shady about exploiting a grey area ? Politicians do it for a living. As I stated earlier, its not illegal to own (or sell) a marlboor wheeljack in the US. Its only illegal to advertise and market it as a "childrens product" in the US because it promotes tobacco. (according to phill morris who wants his piece of the pie) So if you do away with the whole "advertising" aspect of selling the product, you can legally sell it to adults in the US. (With paypal account being proof of legal age) Its that simple. So yes all these smaller retailers that are following bbts/tf sources lead are truly spineless and stupid. Its their profit loss, not mine. I got my classics Exhaust already. I dont collect MP.

You forget, no matter how much you try and sugar-coat it, legally Masterpiece Exhaust falls in the "Toy" category, because Hasbro and TakaraTomy, down to their cores, are "Toys and Games" companies and rtegistered as such, end of story. No matter the audience (children vs. adults) or the intent (like collecting). There is a category for "Adult Collectible" I believe, but only for companies that produce those, and only those. Look at FunPub and how their boxes say "Adult Collectible" with an age to match.

You're right about it not being illegal to own him, but selling him in bulk as a registered store will get you in trouble. And don't even think changing a products' category will change that, in fact that would only add fraud to the offenses once investigations have been completed.

Could anyone with a Legal Degree (which means someone who actually studied law) come here and explain a thing or two?

I don't have a law degree but a lots on common sense. As you postulated, attempts to exploit the gray area will get you into deeper trouble for fraud etc. BUT, if you want to go by the letter of the law.......not advertising the product to minors. X mentioned something about PayPal. That outfit won't allow purchases of "adult" related products (at least on the surface ) I should..........know a bit of that cr@p. Anyway back to topic, I was once a member of a now defunct online retailer that was VERY strict with regards to such "adult" material. They strictly required members to reigster proof of their identity and the likes. Those measures imho were meant to ensure that proof of identity and not defraud.

X has a point on the "spinelessness" of the retailers. In a sense "the more trouble than its worth" mentality is running here but somewhere down the road, this might rear its ugly head again for Meister and Rijie.The result might deter Tomy from even issuing this guys.

I have a pragmmatic and legal approach to this sh*t piece.

Situation: Fenrir72 online store
Open an adults only section with the following requirements to access:

1.For American costumers Drivers' license scan and or copy of Credit card with the relevant numbers blacked out together with the user registering their actual/accurate bio data
2. Recent bank statements to indicate actual use of said card
3. Supposedly BBTS has secured credit lines so it's the risk of the buyer if they actually want to purchase the item if their info gets hacked.
4. The law should more or less see the efforts to stay true to the letter of the ruling to keep the retailers legally safe.

shajaki wrote:Found some sweet new pics

Noitice the font "good flavor"

I still fail to see how it's spineless for stores to refuse to stock this item when they're facing legal pressure from tobacco industry lawyers. Said lawyers are extremely experienced and backed by companies that throw them a ton of money to protect their interests. Whether or not Phillip Morris Co. is legally right to prohibit sales of Exhaust in America, the retailers that would carry Exhaust are not equipped to fight the notorious strength of the tobacco industry. It's simply not worth the time or money they would have to invest to engage in this legal battle, so it's easier to lose the profits for this one figure by not selling it, instead of losing the profits from their entire business by fighting.

The legal issue has been explained a thousand and one times. Are some people having a hard time understanding that PM has done their homework to block domestically? That Bot and a few others are correct. It's not economically sound to challange a lawsuit to discover a loop-hole just push push a few units domestically. Hasbro and Takara would have to change their business catagory and anybody remember Joe Camel?

Agent-539 wrote:The legal issue has been explained a thousand and one times. Are some people having a hard time understanding that PM has done their homework to block domestically? That Bot and a few others are correct. It's not economically sound to challange a lawsuit to discover a loop-hole just push push a few units domestically. Hasbro and Takara would have to change their business catagory and anybody remember Joe Camel?

And the issue is? Do not sell an item that is anyhow construed to be a tobacco endorsed product to kids.

So by all means do so and follow the letter of the law. As also mentioned in my post, the mentality of its more trouble than its worth then so be it. I'm actually not affected as my Exhaust is already on its way.

In my line of work, instead of just bellyaching, I proposed a solution. I don't "parrot" what the majority conveniently chorus.

And, my solution isn't at all towards Tomy and Hasbro. Tomy doesn't even have a problem with this regard as they sell to the Japanese market (as ALL MPs are meant to be with the exception of those with the Asian market in mind then Hasbro is indeed involved). If Hasbro sees it otherwise fine again.

But for parties who want to sell it independently, see the practicality of my suggestion without breaking the law.

I think the biggest thing I learned about Masterpiece Exhaust was how quickly retailers complied with Philip Morris' lawyers. Now if only Hasbro's lawyers would follow in those footsteps to do the same with 3rd party products.

Seibertron wrote:I think the biggest thing I learned about Masterpiece Exhaust was how quickly retailers complied with Philip Morris' lawyers. Now if only Hasbro's lawyers would follow in those footsteps to do the same with 3rd party products.

That's just never going to happen...

Your personal animus of 3rd Parties aside, a legal challenge by Hasbro is in no way worth it for them. Marlboro's white/red triangle design is trademarked and an essential piece of the brand - it would be impossible for Hasbro to protect their hundreds of characters in the same way, especially when 3rd Parties' fudge the design cues that make certain characters recognizably Hasbro's. Plus... the MSA that PM must adhere to is a huge incentive to quash infringement - the resulting penalties should they not take action would be massive. Hasbro doesn't have the same noose around its neck.

Honestly, I think Hasbro is doing a great job competing on its own terms. CW is shaping up to be their best effort in years. 3rd Parties have lately shifted its focus to MP- styled figures, and of Takara steps up its efforts in that area, I can see the market for 3rd Party figures shrinking significantly.

megatronus wrote:Your personal animus of 3rd Parties aside, a legal challenge by Hasbro is in no way worth it for them. Marlboro's white/red triangle design is trademarked and an essential piece of the brand - it would be impossible for Hasbro to protect their hundreds of characters in the same way, especially when 3rd Parties' fudge the design cues that make certain characters recognizably Hasbro's. Plus... the MSA that PM must adhere to is a huge incentive to quash infringement - the resulting penalties should they not take action would be massive. Hasbro doesn't have the same noose around its neck.

It's also worth noting, that the motivation would be completely different as well. PM is doing this to protect themselves from something potentially illegal, not because they want profits from something stealing their likeness.

megatronus wrote:Honestly, I think Hasbro is doing a great job competing on its own terms. CW is shaping up to be their best effort in years. 3rd Parties have lately shifted its focus to MP- styled figures, and of Takara steps up its efforts in that area, I can see the market for 3rd Party figures shrinking significantly.

Absolutely. I've always felt that 3P's actually inspire people to buy MORE official products. For the most part, 3P is there merely to supplement your existing official collection. CW has definitely won many fans back from the 3P scene, as well as the refocused direction of the MP line since MP09. They just need to plant seeds is all. For example: give us a redesigned MP Grimlock or another Dinobot scaled with MP10 to hint at the rest of the team. Eh?

Seibertron wrote:I think the biggest thing I learned about Masterpiece Exhaust was how quickly retailers complied with Philip Morris' lawyers. Now if only Hasbro's lawyers would follow in those footsteps to do the same with 3rd party products.

Ironic in that HasTak basically 'pulled a 3rd Party' with the PM IP...

I've never heard of this Exhaust character, but he looks pretty neat!

OptimalOptimus2 wrote:I've never heard of this Exhaust character, but he looks pretty neat!

He's based on a Diaclone alternate deco of the toy that would become Wheeljack, if you're curious about his origins.

mblase75 wrote:A couple relevant photos of the original(s):

Ugh. It kills me that Takara ended up changing the hood design for nothing. It's still cool, and won't be so noticeable in robot mode anyway, but still... Exhaust's hood looks like a pixelated version of what should have been.

Oh well... Still psyched for my HLJ order to get here!

Seibertron wrote:I think the biggest thing I learned about Masterpiece Exhaust was how quickly retailers complied with Philip Morris' lawyers. Now if only Hasbro's lawyers would follow in those footsteps to do the same with 3rd party products.

Not every 3rd party product infringes. Some are just accessories and nothing more. To go after the entire industry would alienate a number of fans, some of the point that they'd quit collecting. If I couldn't have my 3rd party, I'd probably stop collecting after a certain point.

Just because not everyone agrees on the subject, doesn't mean people should have to suffer to please the opinions of others.

megatronus wrote:

Seibertron wrote:I think the biggest thing I learned about Masterpiece Exhaust was how quickly retailers complied with Philip Morris' lawyers. Now if only Hasbro's lawyers would follow in those footsteps to do the same with 3rd party products.

That's just never going to happen...

Your personal animus of 3rd Parties aside, a legal challenge by Hasbro is in no way worth it for them. Marlboro's white/red triangle design is trademarked and an essential piece of the brand - it would be impossible for Hasbro to protect their hundreds of characters in the same way, especially when 3rd Parties' fudge the design cues that make certain characters recognizably Hasbro's. Plus... the MSA that PM must adhere to is a huge incentive to quash infringement - the resulting penalties should they not take action would be massive. Hasbro doesn't have the same noose around its neck.

Honestly, I think Hasbro is doing a great job competing on its own terms. CW is shaping up to be their best effort in years. 3rd Parties have lately shifted its focus to MP- styled figures, and of Takara steps up its efforts in that area, I can see the market for 3rd Party figures shrinking significantly.

It's not just the design that made it problematic, it's what PM's company offers: Cigarettes. I don't if anyone else here watches Last Week Tonight, but a few weeks back they aired a scathing report on PM and the tactics they go to to keep their products on the shelves. Here, in the US, they're not allowed to advertise fin most mediums, certainly not on a toy. If parents got the wrong idea (and they would), they could sue PM, and it would just be ugly. Hasbro would get slammed, too and they probably couldn't handle the fallout from it.

shajaki wrote:

megatronus wrote:Your personal animus of 3rd Parties aside, a legal challenge by Hasbro is in no way worth it for them. Marlboro's white/red triangle design is trademarked and an essential piece of the brand - it would be impossible for Hasbro to protect their hundreds of characters in the same way, especially when 3rd Parties' fudge the design cues that make certain characters recognizably Hasbro's. Plus... the MSA that PM must adhere to is a huge incentive to quash infringement - the resulting penalties should they not take action would be massive. Hasbro doesn't have the same noose around its neck.

It's also worth noting, that the motivation would be completely different as well. PM is doing this to protect themselves from something potentially illegal, not because they want profits from something stealing their likeness.

megatronus wrote:Honestly, I think Hasbro is doing a great job competing on its own terms. CW is shaping up to be their best effort in years. 3rd Parties have lately shifted its focus to MP- styled figures, and of Takara steps up its efforts in that area, I can see the market for 3rd Party figures shrinking significantly.

Absolutely. I've always felt that 3P's actually inspire people to buy MORE official products. For the most part, 3P is there merely to supplement your existing official collection. CW has definitely won many fans back from the 3P scene, as well as the refocused direction of the MP line since MP09. They just need to plant seeds is all. For example: give us a redesigned MP Grimlock or another Dinobot scaled with MP10 to hint at the rest of the team. Eh?

That's exactly what happened with me. I had gotten rid of most CHUGs once the movies hit, but once 3rd parties stepped in and provided upgrades for those official figures, I started buying MORE, not less, official product. I have FansProject M3 (Menasor) and because of the Perfect Effect set that's coming, I'm considering giving Hasbro another $100.00+ of my money and buying their Menasor because the PE set sold me on it.

People refuse to, they even get ridiculously angry when this is mentioned, but... People should look at this as a symbiotic relationship. Hasbro gets their figures sold, 3rd parties make accessories to fix or address certain issues, both sides get the dough. Thing is, the 3rd parties don't slap HasTak products all over their packages for most items. The accessories? You see a silhouette that could roughly be described as a transformable figure. No official logos, no official images, no names or places used. Even the full on figures skirt the legal limits by their drastic redesigns. Visually, M3 looks like Menasor (and to me and others, he is) but he's not Menasor officially. The G1 version, CW version and M3 are all different from each other in drastic amounts.

People complain about 3rd parties and cry about how they're stealing IP and money and all that, and I might give them the IP argument, but not the money. Most people opt to go the more affordable route and buy the Hasbro offerings, others opt to buy both because they can. Only a small number of people buy strictly 3rd party and their numbers are so small that their loss of income can't really be measured or felt. Besides, if you took the 3rd party away from them, they'd just not buy at all, so that doesn't help Hasbro's position either. I'd quit collecting on principle. People don't have the right to tell me what I can or cannot collect, especially when I spend my money.

Another person's opinion will not sway me, but will more often than not, anger me because they're infringing on my personal space and enjoyment when I don't do the same to others.

Had the 3rd party companies just stuck to creating accessories for official Hasbro products, I would have continued my support for those products as well. I was really excited about City Commander back in the day, and for those of you who recall, we had the world exclusive gallery premiere of that set which was a pretty amazing set back in 2008. Had 3rd party companies continued down that path, I would have been fine with it because it's like buying aftermarket accessories for cars. Companies that make aftermarket products for cars don't make their own cars that are rip-offs of Corvettes, Town and Countries, Thunderbirds, Challengers, Lamborghinis, VW Bugs, etc. If there was a clear-cut way to support the products that require the official Transformers products but not support the products that you can by-pass Hasbro and Takara's products, I would be onboard, but it's too difficult to support one without supporting the other so it's just easier to take a stance against all of it for the time being.

It's sad to see so many fans staunchly defending 3rd party products. What's even more bizarre to me is that many of you think you have a right to those products. It's odd that it's so black and white to myself and to others yet so muddied for everyone else. The "as long as I get what I want to get regardless of how I get it" attitude that is so prevalent amongst 3rd party collectors baffles me.

I'll continue fighting the fight on my end and doing my part behind the scenes because I feel that's right. Something positive might be coming out of my anti-3rd party stance for Seibertron.com ... someone on an official level acknowledged Seibertron.com's stance and what doors it might open for Seibertron.com. It felt wonderful to finally have someone on an official level acknowledge that they had taken note of this. It is frustrating fighting this fight when so many of you seem unconcerned by the ill effects of 3rd party products on the Transformers brand.

Have to agree on this one, as the proof is there. Go back and look through the comments of MP Magnus before his release. There were many people deciding whether to put their money towards the Stacks or official release Magnus. It's highly likely purchases that would have been in Takara's hand went to KFC instead, which lowers the success of the Official Masterpiece line as a whole. Personally, I can't help but think Shockwave and Dinobots MP releases may be stiffled a bit by the release of third party products. I kinda wish some of those 3rd parties went through the proper channels and got hired or contracted as engineers so they would be official products furthering the success of the brand rather than taking away from it.

Seibertron wrote:Had the 3rd party companies just stuck to creating accessories for official Hasbro products, I would have continued my support for those products as well. I was really excited about City Commander back in the day, and for those of you who recall, we had the world exclusive gallery premiere of that set which was a pretty amazing set back in 2008. Had 3rd party companies continued down that path, I would have been fine with it because it's like buying aftermarket accessories for cars. Companies that make aftermarket products for cars don't make their own cars that are rip-offs of Corvettes, Town and Countries, Thunderbirds, Challengers, Lamborghinis, VW Bugs, etc. If there was a clear-cut way to support the products that require the official Transformers products but not support the products that you can by-pass Hasbro and Takara's products, I would be onboard, but it's too difficult to support one without supporting the other so it's just easier to take a stance against all of it for the time being.

It's sad to see so many fans staunchly defending 3rd party products. What's even more bizarre to me is that many of you think you have a right to those products. It's odd that it's so black and white to myself and to others yet so muddied for everyone else. The "as long as I get what I want to get regardless of how I get it" attitude that is so prevalent amongst 3rd party collectors baffles me.

I'll continue fighting the fight on my end and doing my part behind the scenes because I feel that's right. Something positive might be coming out of my anti-3rd party stance for Seibertron.com ... someone on an official level acknowledged Seibertron.com's stance and what doors it might open for Seibertron.com. It felt wonderful to finally have someone on an official level acknowledge that they had taken note of this. It is frustrating fighting this fight when so many of you seem unconcerned by the ill effects of 3rd party products on the Transformers brand.

I didn't know you had a bias against 3P figures until a few posts ago! That's interesting to say the least.

For my part, here is my feeling on it. There isn't a 3rd party figure made that if HasTak produces one better than the one that extists, I wouldn't pay for it. Examples - I own a City Commander set and Target Ultra Magnus. When I sold off my CHUG figures, I kept two out of all of them. Ultra Magnus and Springer. Springer is important because I owned (and sold off) the Warbot Defender they made when there wasn't an acceptable Hasbro alternative. Magnus and City Commander I will probably never get rid of, because Ultra Magnus is my favorite character. Although I am "strictly" a MP collector now, dollars to donuts I will purchase the Leader Ultra Magnus when it comes out. Up til Apollyon and Brawny, I stayed away from 3P Masterpiece, but I have gotten (or pre-ordered) those two, and I'm strongly considering Spinout (Sunstreaker) because HasTak doesn't seem to have any immediate plans to add them to the line. However, if and when they do, I would gladly spend the money to buy an official HasTak product to go with what I own.

In my case (and I'm sure others), Hasbro isn't losing one cent they aren't already getting from me. It suppliments a collection that cost a considerable amount of money to acquire and will continue to add up as time goes on. The 3P guys are getting paid, too because I'm not taking away money from HasTak to buy their product. Like Megatronus, I'm not infringing on anyone else's beliefs with what I am doing with my collecting habits, but it can be construed the other way around. For me, it's black and white...not muddied at all.

I enjoy the official coverage I get here at Seibertron.com, but I think it would be a sadder collecting world without 3P products to fill the gaps while I wait for official ones.

Seibertron wrote:Had the 3rd party companies just stuck to creating accessories for official Hasbro products, I would have continued my support for those products as well. I was really excited about City Commander back in the day, and for those of you who recall, we had the world exclusive gallery premiere of that set which was a pretty amazing set back in 2008. Had 3rd party companies continued down that path, I would have been fine with it because it's like buying aftermarket accessories for cars. Companies that make aftermarket products for cars don't make their own cars that are rip-offs of Corvettes, Town and Countries, Thunderbirds, Challengers, Lamborghinis, VW Bugs, etc. If there was a clear-cut way to support the products that require the official Transformers products but not support the products that you can by-pass Hasbro and Takara's products, I would be onboard, but it's too difficult to support one without supporting the other so it's just easier to take a stance against all of it for the time being.

You would've continued your support of 3rd party... I'll address that below in a moment. As for this next part, it pertains to the line I bolded in your response.

There are many items that 3rd party produces that require the HasTak original item in a clear-cut manner. The DMY Pharonic kit for PRID Megatron, for example. It's a bunch of pieces in a box, those pieces clearly need the Hasbro figure for them to work.

The Perfect Effect Menasor and Superion add-on kits, you absolutely need the Hasbro product to make these pieces work. They're useless otherwise. As I said, that set is getting me to consider buying Hasbro's Menasor, and I already have a great Menasor (FP's) in my collection.

Those are just two very good examples and proof that you can support 3rd party without hurting Hasbro's bottom line and not be a traitor. Reprolabels prints out sticker sheets with official Hasbro logos slapped all over them, all the time and nobody bats an eye. That bugs me because it's incredibly hypocritical. I'm glad Reprolabels is in business, don't get me wrong, but to support them when they technically fall into knock off territory and ignore and hate 3rd party which doesn't knock items off in a lot of their offerings just makes no sense to me and people who sit there on their high horse and tell me about myself just anger me to no end. Such as below in the next segment.

Before we get to that next segment...

You can pick and choose what you consider legit 3rd party, such as accessories and what you don't consider legit, such as full figures that are an "homage" of a character. That's basically throwing the baby out with the bathwater, it's extremism that isn't needed.

Oh and it could be argued that City Commander will cut into Hasbro's profits for the upcoming Combiner Wars Ultra Magnus. Some collectors will say they find FP's version to be far superior, some (like me) don't like the Minimus Ambus aspect of it (fortunately, he's not required to make it work) and some will say "Eh, I have this one already, I ain't spendin' another $50.00 on the same guy. Nah." It's an accessory, sure, but it takes one figure and entirely makes another, which technically renders CW UM moot for some.

Can't have both your cake and eat it too, with that argument.

Seibertron wrote:It's sad to see so many fans staunchly defending 3rd party products. What's even more bizarre to me is that many of you think you have a right to those products. It's odd that it's so black and white to myself and to others yet so muddied for everyone else. The "as long as I get what I want to get regardless of how I get it" attitude that is so prevalent amongst 3rd party collectors baffles me.

You know what baffles me? That you (and others who share your opinion) feel you have the right to judge your fellow fans and collectors because they do things differently from you. It's sad to see a fan decry 3rd party, and stop promoting it, but continues to keep the galleries of past 3rd party products alive. I'd think if one were to truly take a stand against 3rd parties, they'd do it in whole, not just part of the way. Let me make it clear: This is not a dig, this is not an attack, it's pointing out a hypocrisy that makes zero sense and has frustrated me and many (I do mean many) others.

Yet, you and others of the same mindset can sit there and call what we do sad and bizarre and entitled. We're all sad, bizarre and entitled, even you. The majority of us are adults either living with a significant other, or a family member and we have more toys than most stores. We watch cartoons, we watch movies based on cartoons, we read comics based on toys and cartoons. We even wear apparel and modify our bodies to show that we do just that. But, instead of trying to make others feel bad about this, why not embrace it? The world *IS* weird and we're a part of this world. We should embrace our weirdness, follow what makes us happy. And we should do it without judgment of any kind.

Seibertron wrote:I'll continue fighting the fight on my end and doing my part behind the scenes because I feel that's right. Something positive might be coming out of my anti-3rd party stance for Seibertron.com

...

someone on an official level acknowledged Seibertron.com's stance and what doors it might open for Seibertron.com. It felt wonderful to finally have someone on an official level acknowledge that they had taken note of this.

It is frustrating fighting this fight when so many of you seem unconcerned by the ill effects of 3rd party products on the Transformers brand.

Now, we're at the part I wanted to address earlier. You said you would've continued your support of 3rd party if they had done this or done that or stuck to this or stuck to that, but here in this final segment, you made the statements I bolded above.

First bolded part: If you're going to continue fighting it on your end and you feel it's right, why would you have even supported it to begin with? Why would you even entertain the idea with your words, if that's how you feel? That confuses me and others as well.

Second bolded part: That's what it's really all about. Official recognition by Hasbro and/or Takara. It's not about a love for the hobby, it's not about your fellow collector and fan, it's about what doors it might open for you and Seibertron.com, which is an extension of you. I really do think it's great that someone in an official capacity took notice, that's awesome, it really is, but it alienates some of the fans.

It's a fight you chose to take up, out of the blue, all of a sudden after promoting 3rd party for so long. Now, we know why, official recognition, but you chose this. Since it's your choice, why does it give you the right to judge any of us? We don't have the right to judge you, so why's it fair in reverse?

SkyWarpt wrote:Have to agree on this one, as the proof is there. Go back and look through the comments of MP Magnus before his release. There were many people deciding whether to put their money towards the Stacks or official release Magnus. It's highly likely purchases that would have been in Takara's hand went to KFC instead, which lowers the success of the Official Masterpiece line as a whole. Personally, I can't help but think Shockwave and Dinobots MP releases may be stiffled a bit by the release of third party products. I kinda wish some of those 3rd parties went through the proper channels and got hired or contracted as engineers so they would be official products furthering the success of the brand rather than taking away from it.

Plenty of people ditched their Citizen Stack once MP Magnus came along. Check eBay, check the current prices over at BBTS and TFSource. They're all on clearance because people just aren't buying them. I see more people talk about the MP Magnus they just bought than the Citizen Stack they just sold or outright ignored. The number of 3rd party purists you believe to be out there is much, much smaller than you even know. As I said above, their piddling contribution of income to the fan world is so small it doesn't even register as a blip on Hasbro's radar. They're doing just fine without the proceeds of those fans.

And let's not forget... Hasbro, in the past, has told us time and again that we, the fans, are not their main focus and never have been. That we make up barely 10% of their sales (I had once heard it was closer to 7, maybe 8%) and when you keep hearing that, you can't help but take it as "Oh...okay. Well, alright then." 3rd parties come along and say they'll take our business, well of course a fan wants to hear that. Are they using that to get to our wallets? Sure, but the 3rd parties never promised otherwise, either. They never claimed they were doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.

Meanwhile, Hasbro has been officially licensing BotCon to put on conventions for the fans and give us panels to yell at with nothing really gained. It was at one of those panels that we heard our contribution is a drop in the bucket compared to their other sales numbers. A lot of fans are grateful and enjoy the conventions, they do, but there are a lot of fans that can't stand them either. Usually due to bad practices, ridiculously exorbitant prices and customer service that makes you want to claw your own skin off. 3rd party will actually listen to the fans. Where'd we get our first G1 Arcee? Impossible Toys. Sure, it wasn't the best quality, but they did try. Hasbro? ...28 years. Twenty. Eight. Years. Nearly THREE decades to do what should've been done long ago.

This is why 3rd party is so prevalent. This is why people keep giving them their money. Hasbro's finally listening, we're finally getting some really killer product worth buying. Combiner Wars? Heck yeah, GOOD stuff. Latest Generations? Rock solid. Why did it take decades to make it happen, though? Why did some of the best stuff have to have it's origins based in a filler line back in 2006? I realize the movies and shows take precedence over the fan oriented stuff, I do, but why not make a show or movie that helps sell the CHUG stuff so it doesn't have to be a filler line anymore?

It's decisions like those that make 3rd parties work. People are saying Hasbro shouldn't have to compete. I say, why not? In the 1980's, Go-Bots were their direct competition and Transformers beat them, but at least it was open and fair. Hasbro then went and bought up everything Go-Bots and repurposed it to their whims. That's fine, they have that legal right, they own it lock, stock and barrel. (I know the toys are owned by Bandai, I'm talking about the names, locations and fiction.) It also took their competition off the market.

Power Rangers is remotely their only real competition and for many years it beat Transformers with one hand tied behind it's back. I'd love to see Hasbro try and buy that up so they have no competition there. (It'll never happen. lol) 3rd parties are doing what Tonka and Bandai have/are doing. Competing. The competition wouldn't even be there if Hasbro would address what the fans have wanted all this time.

Now, if they had and the 3rd parties still came up with their versions of these items, that would be one thing. I'd be all "OMGWTFBBQ GUYZ?" because then people would have a solidly legitimate complaint. As it is, this all started as accessories and grew into more because Hasbro wouldn't address big, gaping holes in their lineups.

I must give Hasbro props, though... Roadbuster? That's an out of nowhere release and it was cool of them to take the risk. Turned out to be a nice figure, I thought. Bought it instead of the $90.00 FP guy.

sol magnus wrote:I didn't know you had a bias against 3P figures until a few posts ago! That's interesting to say the least.

Thank you for bringing that to our attention, we should make it far more clear than we do. That's something that needs to be addressed.

sol magnus wrote:For my part, here is my feeling on it. There isn't a 3rd party figure made that if HasTak produces one better than the one that extists, I wouldn't pay for it. Examples - I own a City Commander set and Target Ultra Magnus. When I sold off my CHUG figures, I kept two out of all of them. Ultra Magnus and Springer. Springer is important because I owned (and sold off) the Warbot Defender they made when there wasn't an acceptable Hasbro alternative. Magnus and City Commander I will probably never get rid of, because Ultra Magnus is my favorite character. Although I am "strictly" a MP collector now, dollars to donuts I will purchase the Leader Ultra Magnus when it comes out. Up til Apollyon and Brawny, I stayed away from 3P Masterpiece, but I have gotten (or pre-ordered) those two, and I'm strongly considering Spinout (Sunstreaker) because HasTak doesn't seem to have any immediate plans to add them to the line. However, if and when they do, I would gladly spend the money to buy an official HasTak product to go with what I own.

And this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Fans, especially long time ones, want what they want and if official sources won't produce it, but others will, well other will get the proceeds. I collect CHUG, show/movie bots and Masterpiece. If it's official or 3rd party, I'll buy it. I have no problem supporting Hasbro, I also have no problem supporting 3rd party. Springer's an excellent example. I owned Warbot Defender and as soon as Springer was in my hands, I sold off WD, seeing as I don't need TWO of the same character and when one of those is superior for a LOT less money. Chances are, I'll probably get rid of my D.I.A. Clone Commander when Leader Class Ultra Magnus comes out. In fact, I'm 99% sure of it.

I have no problem replacing 3rd party stuff with official, if it fits my needs and makes me happy. As of late, official stuff has been winning over 3rd party. CW Superion is a fantastic combiner and gives me zero need to have TFC's Uranos. (I'm speaking for me, not anyone else, so please people, don't jump on here and get after me about Uranos and his value and all that jazz.)

sol magnus wrote:In my case (and I'm sure others), Hasbro isn't losing one cent they aren't already getting from me. It suppliments a collection that cost a considerable amount of money to acquire and will continue to add up as time goes on. The 3P guys are getting paid, too because I'm not taking away money from HasTak to buy their product. Like Megatronus, I'm not infringing on anyone else's beliefs with what I am doing with my collecting habits, but it can be construed the other way around. For me, it's black and white...not muddied at all.

Exactly. In the end, I'm not bothering anyone, nor am I keeping the world from spinning. One day when we grow old and stop collecting, we'll look back on all of this and say "You know what? It was pretty crappy to judge that dude over some toys. We need help." It bothers me to be judged, when no one has that right, no one.

sol magnus wrote:I enjoy the official coverage I get here at Seibertron.com, but I think it would be a sadder collecting world without 3P products to fill the gaps while I wait for official ones.

Absolutely agree.

Jefferey, you put way too much effort into analyzing a few paragraphs that I said.

I said very clearly where the line in the sand is drawn for me on this topic. Aftermarket accessories for cars are OK. Aftermarket companies making their own cars is not OK. Had these companies continued making aftermarket accessories for Transformers but never dove into the shady world of making their own Transformers, all would be fine.

ReproLabels provides a service to restore Transformers toys. Using the automotive comparison, they are making parts to restore vintage products or they are making accessories to enhance the official product that you have. The Hasbro employees I have had conversations with about 3rd party stuff also seem to agree with where the line is drawn.

There are 3,574 galleries on this site currently. A whopping 43 (FORTY THREE) galleries fall into 3rd party and KO galleries. Those galleries, like the previous news stories on Seibertron.com about 3rd party products as well as the forum topics, continue to stay here on Seibertron.com for historical purposes because they served a purpose at one time. It's silly and a waste of time to purge content that was already made for this site because life changed. Products such as BotCon 2004 Action Master G2 Breakdown and the BotCon/Unicron.com Vector Sigma kit also fall into the category of times gone by. Times change, there's no need to hide the past because opinions change.