Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

[Daniel Adkins]

I honestly don't understand why discussing gender identity is considered political when by all accounts it shouldn't be.

[Stormshot_Prime]

And now we can make the joke about Trans-formers with emphasis on the trans amiritegys?

"sigh" Why can't we just stay simple with there being only two genders and media not sucking up to the popular trends of the year damn it Roberts.

I might be bias though since besides being in a Christian family I'm personally very much against the concept of people deciding what gender they are and ignoring science and biology like their god like I don't care if you think your an attack Helicopter or an alien your born either a boy or a girl that's the way it's always been and how God intended it to be so why are we only now doing this stuff for the last couple years?

Sorry if I'm getting political or being self centered I don't like being that but this subject is just wrong and unnatural to me and in my opinion those people need help and not encouragement.

Transformers have had a concept of gender ever since the first Marvel issue referred to Optimus Prime as a 'he'. If they have enough of a concept to describe each other with such pronouns, it's really not that much of a stretch to believe some would end up preferring different pronouns later in their lives.

Only real reason for that besides toys and humanizing them is that there isn't really any terms when it comes to genderless or other gendered people like there is for people being referred as him and her among other terms.

Hard to write a character like that without calling them it and making them seam less alive.

Except there is a word: "they."

Also, gender is a construct. There's more than two genders.

With that, I must board a plane. Please don't go to hell, Thread!

EDIT: And awesome because it's more representation for transgender fans.

I mean representation is great, but why do they need his kind of representation in the form of alien robots? The things don't go together, and its a bit awkward. I feel like this whole matter is becoming like the declining sale in Marvel comics that arose because of the numerous political issues similar to this that were appearing in strips.

Things like these don't mix sometimes.

[Kurona]

For god's sake.

I will say it once more: back to the Lost Light. No more of this subject in this thread.

[Rodimus Prime]

For god's sake.

I will say it once more: back to the Lost Light. No more of this subject in this thread.

Thank you. At least someone listened. Daniel Adkins, Stormshot, each of you get a warning. And Kurona, I agree that it's hard to not talk about this subject considering what happened in the comic, but these discussions always veer off the path of civility and derail the thread, so it's best to get ahead of it, based on experience. I would like to have a discussion regarding the subject, but it has to be in its own thread.

[Soundwave902]

Would anyone else like to have a full version of the List with crimes listed next to the accused.

[DeadCaL]

We have aliens whose lifespans are seemingly infinite (at least in the IDWverse) expressing a lot of overly human feelings and angst.

This bit here is what's been turning me off with Lost Light/MTMTE for quite a while. I realise that it's being read by squishy humans, so we have to understand them to an extent, but I prefer my giant alien robots that transform into cars to be a bit more alien and robotic, and bit less forlorn people in robot suits who occasionally have discos.

Also if they could transform once in a while, that'd be nice

[ricemazter]

We have aliens whose lifespans are seemingly infinite (at least in the IDWverse) expressing a lot of overly human feelings and angst.

This bit here is what's been turning me off with Lost Light/MTMTE for quite a while. I realise that it's being read by squishy humans, so we have to understand them to an extent, but I prefer my giant alien robots that transform into cars to be a bit more alien and robotic, and bit less forlorn people in robot suits who occasionally have discos.

Also if they could transform once in a while, that'd be nice

I'd be happy if current transformers titles could keep the feelings and angst related to the issues affecting the robot society. Like, I don't think any of the current transformers titles have really dealt with post war reconciliation between Autobots and Decepticons in any meaningful way. I mean, we sort of got that with RID, but from my recollection the Decepticons were pretty Hell bent on starting another war throughout most of it. I want to say that TAAO dealt with it a bit, but for the life of me I can't remember anything beyond the Combaticons being antagonists.

So far, the only stories I can think of that really cared about the open wounds on both sides and the emotional aftermath of the war was the one shot with Sandstorm and the couple Scavengers stories. Maybe some lip service here and there. I still really like the line Ratchet has in MTMTE about peace being an anti-climax.

I like Nautica and a lot of the other crewmembers, but I can't really bring myself to care about her feelings of alienation on Caminus because it doesn't have anything to do with the issues that have been set up in the past decade. I have similar qualms with other characters.

Also, I'm tired of titles that are more or less starring Autobots who are the defacto protagonists. You'd think we could get a series that headlines Decepticons for once, one that deals with the fact that everything they fought for was ultimately pointless.

[Cheesinator]

I'd be happy if current transformers titles could keep the feelings and angst related to the issues affecting the robot society. Like, I don't think any of the current transformers titles have really dealt with post war reconciliation between Autobots and Decepticons in any meaningful way. I mean, we sort of got that with RID, but from my recollection the Decepticons were pretty Hell bent on starting another war throughout most of it. I want to say that TAAO dealt with it a bit, but for the life of me I can't remember anything beyond the Combaticons being antagonists.

So far, the only stories I can think of that really cared about the open wounds on both sides and the emotional aftermath of the war was the one shot with Sandstorm and the couple Scavengers stories. Maybe some lip service here and there. I still really like the line Ratchet has in MTMTE about peace being an anti-climax.

I like Nautica and a lot of the other crewmembers, but I can't really bring myself to care about her feelings of alienation on Caminus because it doesn't have anything to do with the issues that have been set up in the past decade. I have similar qualms with other characters.

Also, I'm tired of titles that are more or less starring Autobots who are the defacto protagonists. You'd think we could get a series that headlines Decepticons for once, one that deals with the fact that everything they fought for was ultimately pointless.

You've nailed it, IMO.

I like Lost Light, but less so than most of MTMTE because of the reasons largely stated above. The series always basically a sitcom, but it was always set very firmly within the Transformers universe and was clearly a Transformers story but with more characterisation and personal twists than we're used to (which was fantastic).

The focus now seems to be edging more towards the personal dramas and relationships, and less so on the broader Trasnsformers stuff. It's still good, but as a Transformers fan, the shift in tone dilutes the appeal for me.

I'd love to see some more focus on how Decepticons and Autobots are actually coexisting. For all the progressive strides MTMTE is making, it's odd that it still follows the basic 'all Autobots good, all Decepticons bad' decree (with a very small handful of exceptions like Pharma and Megatron...and I guess the Scavengers but they're still burning Autobots alive when they get the chance aren't they?).

[cybercat]

I'd be happy if current transformers titles could keep the feelings and angst related to the issues affecting the robot society.
I like Nautica and a lot of the other crewmembers, but I can't really bring myself to care about her feelings of alienation on Caminus because it doesn't have anything to do with the issues that have been set up in the past decade. I have similar qualms with other characters.

Also, I'm tired of titles that are more or less starring Autobots who are the defacto protagonists. You'd think we could get a series that headlines Decepticons for once, one that deals with the fact that everything they fought for was ultimately pointless.

You've nailed it, IMO.

I like Lost Light, but less so than most of MTMTE because of the reasons largely stated above. The series always basically a sitcom, but it was always set very firmly within the Transformers universe and was clearly a Transformers story but with more characterisation and personal twists than we're used to (which was fantastic).

The focus now seems to be edging more towards the personal dramas and relationships, and less so on the broader Trasnsformers stuff. It's still good, but as a Transformers fan, the shift in tone dilutes the appeal for me.

I'd love to see some more focus on how Decepticons and Autobots are actually coexisting. For all the progressive strides MTMTE is making, it's odd that it still follows the basic 'all Autobots good, all Decepticons bad' decree (with a very small handful of exceptions like Pharma and Megatron...and I guess the Scavengers but they're still burning Autobots alive when they get the chance aren't they?).

Sorry for the long quote, but so much to THIS to this sentiment. The post Costa comics began with a fascinating premise: 'peace' and reconciliation. It's strange how that's the plot that has been repeatedly sidelined and marginalized, in favor of new characters who, can I be blunt? Are really almost impossible to differentiate. I find it hard to feel any risk or jeopardy for these characters, since so many characters have fake died that when one really does die, my response is more like...wow, wtf went on there, than really feeling any emotional impact.

And I'll be honest: I write fanfic, and I...kind of don't like how fanficcy all the TF titles have gotten? I suppose I should celebrate the mainstreaming of shipping and slash and stuff, but...I can't. It feels weird. Like your favorite special thing has now become pop music.

And I don't want to reopen a can of worms, but, uh, some of us DO gender theory in our day jobs, and you make us cringe when you toss around your tumblr version of gender. If nothing else, I am tired of all the retconning of gender. I honestly don't understand why robots had to have binary gender AT ALL. It's a ludicrous proposition and an absolute failure of creativity.

CC, the crankiest cat.

[cybercat]

Transformers have had a concept of gender ever since the first Marvel issue referred to Optimus Prime as a 'he'. If they have enough of a concept to describe each other with such pronouns, it's really not that much of a stretch to believe some would end up preferring different pronouns later in their lives.

Nice try, but, omg, nope.

See, when TFs first came out, I was alive, and I can tell you from personal experience we were taught in school the 'default male' pronoun. As in, I was taught that this would be a correct sentence in American English: "Each student will hand in HIS paper." His. Regardless of the actual gender of any or all of the students. Many Romance languages have a similar aspect--in French, if you have 50 women and 1 man, you refer to the group as "Ils"--the masculine pronoun, and not "Elles."

So, in 1984, the 'idek' gender default was 'he'. That does not imply the invocation of binary gender.
Additionally, if you don't want to get all meta, let's get inworld--despite what JRo seems to believe, giant alien robots...don't speak English. That means that anything (a joke, a pronoun, etc) can be simply a 'translation' from Cybertronian to the language of the comics readers. An approximation could easily simply refer to a character as 'he'.

Additionally, gender only exists when sex and sentience coexist. Your cat doesn't have a gender, it has a sex. It has no 'sentience'. Giant alien robots, outside the fun fun smutty world of fanfic, do not have sex and therefore, you know, can't have gender.

cc, don't even get me started on Judith Butler, yo

[Kurona]

You'd think staff members saying 'no' multiple times and getting to the point of handing out warnings would be enough, but... apparently not.

Please listen to what the actual Moderators have said rather than going off about what you think is "tumblr-y" or not. Thank you.

[Burn]

So yeah, this latest issue? Boring.

Don't care about the characters. Don't care about all the relationship stuff, very much over it.

I miss the days when comic books told good old fashioned stories and didn't resort to making socio-political statements.

[Kurona]

So yeah, this latest issue? Boring.

Don't care about the characters. Don't care about all the relationship stuff, very much over it.

I miss the days when comic books told good old fashioned stories and didn't resort to making socio-political statements.

But that's kind of what fiction does?

It's what it's always done. I don't even need to bring up literary greats like Shakespeare and Orwell because it's been with comics since the beginning. A huge proportion of the first Marvel and DC comics were made as a response to the rising threat of WWII, while X-Men - one of whose issues has the proud owner of being the #1 best-selling comic of all time - is an allegory to oppressed groups in society. Politics and social commentary always have been and always will be a part of comics and fiction as a whole.

[Ironhidensh]

Yeah, but it wasn't the only thing in the story. Those comics still told kick ass action and adventure, with the commentary on the side. Lost Light feels like a platform for commentary, with a tiny bit of action on the side.

I loved MTMTE, but so far, LL is a completely different book, with vaugly similar characters. It sucks.

[Burn]

So yeah, this latest issue? Boring.

Don't care about the characters. Don't care about all the relationship stuff, very much over it.

I miss the days when comic books told good old fashioned stories and didn't resort to making socio-political statements.

But that's kind of what fiction does?

It's what it's always done. I don't even need to bring up literary greats like Shakespeare and Orwell because it's been with comics since the beginning. A huge proportion of the first Marvel and DC comics were made as a response to the rising threat of WWII, while X-Men - one of whose issues has the proud owner of being the #1 best-selling comic of all time - is an allegory to oppressed groups in society. Politics and social commentary always have been and always will be a part of comics and fiction as a whole.

We must be reading different modern day comics then. Because I don't see any of it in Batman, Flash, or a lot of DC titles (Superman may be an exception), and setting Marvels current "Secret Empire" series, a number of their titles are socio-political free.

But hey, you like them, that's fine. I don't.

[ricemazter]

So yeah, this latest issue? Boring.

Don't care about the characters. Don't care about all the relationship stuff, very much over it.

I miss the days when comic books told good old fashioned stories and didn't resort to making socio-political statements.

But that's kind of what fiction does?

It's what it's always done. I don't even need to bring up literary greats like Shakespeare and Orwell because it's been with comics since the beginning. A huge proportion of the first Marvel and DC comics were made as a response to the rising threat of WWII, while X-Men - one of whose issues has the proud owner of being the #1 best-selling comic of all time - is an allegory to oppressed groups in society. Politics and social commentary always have been and always will be a part of comics and fiction as a whole.

We must be reading different modern day comics then. Because I don't see any of it in Batman, Flash, or a lot of DC titles (Superman may be an exception), and setting Marvels current "Secret Empire" series, a number of their titles are socio-political free.

But hey, you like them, that's fine. I don't.

I think it's more a point of how every work of fiction is in some way political, not necessarily sociopolitical, but political in that it makes a point about something whether philosophical or moral or whatever. Superman stands for truth, justice, and the American way, which makes everything he does a political statement practically by default. If an author were to come along and say he didn't, that would also be political.

Vigilante characters is also a political statement, not to mention what audience members bring in with their own interpretations. For instance, and not making a judgement call on whether this is a good thing or not, I've always seen Batman as a conservative superhero. I won't explain why, that's way off topic and will probably get me banned.

Some books are much more on the nose than others. For a while now, Roberts' transformers have been about oppression, institutional or otherwise. Remember when the Scavengers learned to accept mental illness after freeing robotic torture slaves while Fortress Maxemus, now a cop, learned that this one group associated with criminality wasn't as bad as he thought?

[Va'al]

In addition to above message, which is actually an excellent point and basically what I wanted to say, there's also this:

Everything can be read as political, or making some sort of statement. Not everything has to be read through that lens.

And my old favourite:

No Piece of Media is Created in a Vacuum. Writers and artists exist in our world, and they're bound to include references or opinions (even involuntary) on the geo-socio-political situation they inhabit. That has always been the case, and still is. [And in fact, choosing to NOT say anything about the world we inhabit is a political statement in itself. A topic for another thread.]

---

In terms of Lost Light, this issue has actually brought me back to enjoying the series, which the previous arc had not done as much until the ending in issue #6 (and still, I have many thinky thoughts about that whole thing). I am very curious to see where it leads.

[Stormshot_Prime]

Yeah, but it wasn't the only thing in the story. Those comics still told kick ass action and adventure, with the commentary on the side. Lost Light feels like a platform for commentary, with a tiny bit of action on the side.

I loved MTMTE, but so far, LL is a completely different book, with vaugly similar characters. It sucks.

That's my main issue, above all else. All those socio-political arguments aside, the series changed so abruptly in quality and theme that many readers like you and I are left with whiplash. The premise of MTMTE was a bunch of emotionally broken, PTSD-having, war torn bots on an epic quest, and now half of the cast can't even relate to the war. This last issue really shows this off for me, there was not one original Lost Lighter in the main cast. Not that I don't love the fembots (maybe save for Anode), but the quest and whole essence of what MTMTE was about is lost on them it seems.

Collective groans when the whole Skid's-brain-in-eye thing happened. Can we and the Rodimus crew not legitimately feel the weight of loss for once?

[ricemazter]

Yeah, but it wasn't the only thing in the story. Those comics still told kick ass action and adventure, with the commentary on the side. Lost Light feels like a platform for commentary, with a tiny bit of action on the side.

I loved MTMTE, but so far, LL is a completely different book, with vaugly similar characters. It sucks.

That's my main issue, above all else. All those socio-political arguments aside, the series changed so abruptly in quality and theme that many readers like you and I are left with whiplash. The premise of MTMTE was a bunch of emotionally broken, PTSD-having, war torn bots on an epic quest, and now half of the cast can't even relate to the war. This last issue really shows this off for me, there was not one original Lost Lighter in the main cast. Not that I don't love the fembots (maybe save for Anode), but the quest and whole essence of what MTMTE was about is lost on them it seems.

Collective groans when the whole Skid's-brain-in-eye thing happened. Can we and the Rodimus crew not legitimately feel the weight of loss for once?

It seems to me that Hot Rod certainly can't, his character flaws won't allow it. Everything is all about him, including grief. He has to change his paint scheme and make a public declaration about his pain so that everyone can see how sad he is about Skids' death, never mind the actual loss experienced or how his crew feels. No, currently it's all about vengeance against Getaway, not contacting Cybertron, not explaining to anybody outside the crew what's going on, just stopping Getaway from finishing the quest before him. I don't see why Drift, a supposedly deeply spiritual bot, puts up with him nor why Ultra Magnus hasn't initiated procedure to remove him from command. As a leader, he hasn't addressed the possible drug problem among his crew and it's doubtful he's even aware of it along with a plethora of other issues going on around him.

He's slimy and manipulative to boot. He basically tricks Ultra Magnus into hating Megatron using reverse psychology instead of allowing him to come to his own conclusions. Not to mention how he constantly undermines his own crew, outright ignoring the concerns of his second in command or otherwise fooling him into dropping the issue, putting swerve (who has his own emotional baggage) down, and ignoring the legitimate ethical concerns of defiling a corpse, again in order to get to Getaway faster.

Sorry that I'm using your post as an excuse to rant. I just hate Hot Rod so much, and am annoyed that he's still in charge and that everyone currently under him just accepts that.

[Stormshot_Prime]

It seems to me that Hot Rod certainly can't, his character flaws won't allow it. Everything is all about him, including grief. He has to change his paint scheme and make a public declaration about his pain so that everyone can see how sad he is about Skids' death, never mind the actual loss experienced or how his crew feels. No, currently it's all about vengeance against Getaway, not contacting Cybertron, not explaining to anybody outside the crew what's going on, just stopping Getaway from finishing the quest before him. I don't see why Drift, a supposedly deeply spiritual bot, puts up with him nor why Ultra Magnus hasn't initiated procedure to remove him from command. As a leader, he hasn't addressed the possible drug problem among his crew and it's doubtful he's even aware of it along with a plethora of other issues going on around him.

He's slimy and manipulative to boot. He basically tricks Ultra Magnus into hating Megatron using reverse psychology instead of allowing him to come to his own conclusions. Not to mention how he constantly undermines his own crew, outright ignoring the concerns of his second in command or otherwise fooling him into dropping the issue, putting swerve (who has his own emotional baggage) down, and ignoring the legitimate ethical concerns of defiling a corpse, again in order to get to Getaway faster.

Sorry that I'm using your post as an excuse to rant. I just hate Hot Rod so much, and am annoyed that he's still in charge and that everyone currently under him just accepts that.[/quote]

You made a really great point with the whole Megatron ordeal. Magnus was having some legitimate thoughtful ideas about Megatron at the very end of his story, the way Rodimus made him snap was jolting. I expect when Rodimus and Co do finally make it back it won't be as cut and dry as "good guy Rodimus vs scumbag Getaway."

Rodimus' own attitude towards Megatron makes it seem like he would agree with Getaway, like he would've totally had Megatron thrown off when Getaway and Atomizer did the memory-erasing interviews.

I'm curious about this drug problem you mentioned, who's been showing signs of that?

[ArmadaPrime]

No, currently it's all about vengeance against Getaway, not contacting Cybertron, not explaining to anybody outside the crew what's going on, just stopping Getaway from finishing the quest before him.

I've cut most of your Rodimus rant (rantimus?) though I don't necessarily disagree with the fundamental point you were making, but mainly I wanted to hone in on this.
I'm firmly in the Getaway hate brigade- even if did agree with his motive, his actions to get there were inexcusable, but rodders is not handling this properly at All. I'm pretty sure that the rest of the universe still thinks they're all dead- there's been no follow-up to the funeral video and anyone who even had time to check would have found a disappeared necroworld. I honestly hope rods return to the LL doesn't go swimmingly and he maybe learns to spot when his emotions are getting the better of him and consult with people on decisions. Getaway is nothing short of vile, but Rodimus is kind of a (well-meaning) tool tbh

[Burn]

So yeah, this latest issue? Boring.

Don't care about the characters. Don't care about all the relationship stuff, very much over it.

I miss the days when comic books told good old fashioned stories and didn't resort to making socio-political statements.

But that's kind of what fiction does?

It's what it's always done. I don't even need to bring up literary greats like Shakespeare and Orwell because it's been with comics since the beginning. A huge proportion of the first Marvel and DC comics were made as a response to the rising threat of WWII, while X-Men - one of whose issues has the proud owner of being the #1 best-selling comic of all time - is an allegory to oppressed groups in society. Politics and social commentary always have been and always will be a part of comics and fiction as a whole.

We must be reading different modern day comics then. Because I don't see any of it in Batman, Flash, or a lot of DC titles (Superman may be an exception), and setting Marvels current "Secret Empire" series, a number of their titles are socio-political free.

But hey, you like them, that's fine. I don't.

I think it's more a point of how every work of fiction is in some way political, not necessarily sociopolitical, but political in that it makes a point about something whether philosophical or moral or whatever. Superman stands for truth, justice, and the American way, which makes everything he does a political statement practically by default. If an author were to come along and say he didn't, that would also be political.

Vigilante characters is also a political statement, not to mention what audience members bring in with their own interpretations. For instance, and not making a judgement call on whether this is a good thing or not, I've always seen Batman as a conservative superhero. I won't explain why, that's way off topic and will probably get me banned.

Some books are much more on the nose than others. For a while now, Roberts' transformers have been about oppression, institutional or otherwise. Remember when the Scavengers learned to accept mental illness after freeing robotic torture slaves while Fortress Maxemus, now a cop, learned that this one group associated with criminality wasn't as bad as he thought?

Fair enough, but all that being said, those books more often than not have it as an underlying current, it's there, but it's not in your face, you can enjoy the main focus of the story, unlike what these TF books have become.

[Daniel Adkins]

Honestly, the quality of this book has been declining since Season 2 because James is clearly running out of steam. The thing is not a lot of people actually noticed until now because it was still MTMTE. But because of the "break" (Titans Return/Revolution), the relaunch, and the new artist, everybody lost their rose-tinted MTMTE glasses.

[Burn]

Well to me it use to be a light hearted book, it always gave me chuckles.

Now the chuckles are gone and replaced with eye rolling as another creators uses their piece of media puts their socio-political opinions on display.

[Va'al]

Well to me it use to be a light hearted book, it always gave me chuckles.

Now the chuckles are gone and replaced with eye rolling as another creators uses their piece of media puts their socio-political opinions on display.

See, I always saw the political side of the book, always present even more than the actual politicking of exRID/Transformers. So that - for me - hasn't changed.

As for the point raised by Daniel Adkins. Well. That is an interesting claim, and something I will chew on for a little longer. But I think you have a finger on a spot that might be needing a scratch.