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The king of FPSs vs the spikey, emo who launched the start of anime-RPGs.

Cloud. The fact that you keep using the term "emo" wrong aside,* he can easily out maneuver Duke, and he can take more punishment than any normal human couple. (Watch what happens in Advent Children Complete when Cloud fails using Omnislash. It's a miracle he had any blood left) Hell, getting run through with swords is practically half of his strategy. Also he survived a bullet to the face and only flinched a little.

*The one time he's ever shown being sad is after he just barely managed to avoid killing his girlfriend, only for her to die anyway. Even after his hometown was burned down and everyone he knew was either dead or mortally wounded, his only thought was to go into a blind rage and kill the bastard who did it. Otherwise, he's basically Spock.

I don't remember Cloud getting shot in the head. Even so if that's true I'd call bullshit on account of the writing crew forgetting they aren't working on DMC.

I'd have to disagree. Duke's a walking arsenal, he's got a jetpack, he's easily got the bigger build, and he's taken down armies of monsters just as big as Cloud has without the aid of any magic or friends. He's also somewhat reluctant to fight where Duke goes balls to the wall to win.

With his team Cloud is a force to be reckoned with, but in reality he's one guy with an oversized sword (seriously its always bugged me how those anemic arms can hold a sword that'd have to weigh 200 pounds much less use it). Advent children's fights were weird, with him jumping all over the place where he could never do that in FF7, also, he only survived the first time he was stabbed though the chest because of the mad scientist guy and that tactic was a ditch last effort to protect Tifa from the white haired dude with the mommy complex. Also, Duke's got some seriously weird weapons. The Freeze ray and the shrink gun are among the quicker ways Duke could kick the security guard's teeth out.

I want you to know that everything you just said really makes it look like you never played FF7. For instance, that scene you described, never happened. Also, Cloud can lift the Buster Sword because of the gene therapy making him into a super soldier, which they made a pretty big deal about, as well as having absorbed the memories of another super soldier, which they made a very subtle deal about. (A lot more obvious in Crisis Core) Also, he got shot in the head like five minutes into Advent Children, all it did was leave a small scar. Also, the entire cast is shown being able to leap at least twice their own height in the original game. The only reason Cloud was never shown leaping around like he did in AC was because you couldn't really do that on the PS1, much less in an RPG like Final Fantasy.

Also, as for FF7 being the launch of anime-RPGs, Chrono Trigger came out two years before, with character designs by Dragonball creator Akira Toriyama.

Shadowman wrote:I want you to know that everything you just said really makes it look like you never played FF7. For instance, that scene you described, never happened. Also, Cloud can lift the Buster Sword because of the gene therapy making him into a super soldier, which they made a pretty big deal about, as well as having absorbed the memories of another super soldier, which they made a very subtle deal about. (A lot more obvious in Crisis Core) Also, he got shot in the head like five minutes into Advent Children, all it did was leave a small scar. Also, the entire cast is shown being able to leap at least twice their own height in the original game. The only reason Cloud was never shown leaping around like he did in AC was because you couldn't really do that on the PS1, much less in an RPG like Final Fantasy.

Also, as for FF7 being the launch of anime-RPGs, Chrono Trigger came out two years before, with character designs by Dragonball creator Akira Toriyama.

Its been 10 years since I played the game, and to be fair the whole 'absorbs skills and memories from a real soldier' thing is sketchy. he may have trained his whole life to be in SOLDIER but he was never accepted, and the method he was infused with jenova and mako was in a guy's basement, effectively meaning he's a poor man's soldier.

Also, you're making the argument that because they couldn't jump that high in the game means you could disregard any limitation from the game thus removing a huge chunk of canon as reference. I STILL say it doesn't matter, a bullet to the head kills someone. Besides you really didn't argue anything about Duke. I don't care if in FF7 bullets just result in numbers, the fact is Duke's going to draw and fire at least 15 times before Cloud can lunge or cast a spell.

Admittedly Cloud could use that blade as shield but I'm having a hard time seeing him win.

Psycho Warrior wrote:Its been 10 years since I played the game, and to be fair the whole 'absorbs skills and memories from a real soldier' thing is sketchy. he may have trained his whole life to be in SOLDIER but he was never accepted, and the method he was infused with jenova and mako was in a guy's basement, effectively meaning he's a poor man's soldier.

Except it was stated that after four years of being experimented on, his fractured psyche used bits of Zack (Zack was constantly talking to Cloud to try and pull him out of his catatonic state) as well as false, idealized memories to repair itself. It was also explained that Jenova cells can absorb and transmit memories, which is why Tifa didn't point out that half of Cloud's recollection of the Nibelheim Incident shouldn't have included him.

And "a guy's basement" was the lab under Shinra Mansion, and where they made Sephiroth.

Psycho Warrior wrote:Also, you're making the argument that because they couldn't jump that high in the game

Pay attention here: I said they COULD jump that high in the game. Half of Cloud's limit breaks involve him jumping over twice his height into the air, and typically staying there for a moment. What I SAID was, because of graphical limitations, they couldn't render fights like in Advent Children.

Psycho Warrior wrote:I STILL say it doesn't matter, a bullet to the head kills someone.

Didn't kill Cloud. It also didn't kill him when a round from the same gun was shown passing right through his torso. That just made him mad.

Psycho Warrior wrote:Besides you really didn't argue anything about Duke. I don't care if in FF7 bullets just result in numbers, the fact is Duke's going to draw and fire at least 15 times before Cloud can lunge or cast a spell.

Assuming Cloud stands still and doesn't dodge or counter attack or block or do anything. Or NOT do anything; this is Cloud, taking absurd amounts of damage is one of his specialties.

Psycho Warrior wrote:Admittedly Cloud could use that blade as shield

True, Zack was shown using the Buster Sword to shield against automatic fire from a half-dozen Shinra troops.

Psycho Warrior wrote:but I'm having a hard time seeing him win.

I'm not, because I actually know what Cloud is capable of.

Shadowman wrote: Also, he got shot in the head like five minutes into Advent Children, all it did was leave a small scar.

I'm pretty certain that Clouds goggles/glasses took the brunt of that bullet. That's why it only left a small cut. But, admittedly, the scene was very fast.

I agree though, Cloud would win this one. He is a superhuman wrecking ball of a man. Duke was a BAMF himself, but no where near as much so as Cloud.

Shadowman wrote:

Psycho Warrior wrote:Its been 10 years since I played the game, and to be fair the whole 'absorbs skills and memories from a real soldier' thing is sketchy. he may have trained his whole life to be in SOLDIER but he was never accepted, and the method he was infused with jenova and mako was in a guy's basement, effectively meaning he's a poor man's soldier.

Except it was stated that after four years of being experimented on, his fractured psyche used bits of Zack (Zack was constantly talking to Cloud to try and pull him out of his catatonic state) as well as false, idealized memories to repair itself. It was also explained that Jenova cells can absorb and transmit memories, which is why Tifa didn't point out that half of Cloud's recollection of the Nibelheim Incident shouldn't have included him.

And "a guy's basement" was the lab under Shinra Mansion, and where they made Sephiroth.

4 years in the tubes (and if I must spell it out, yes I know they probably weren't in the tubes 24/7), it makes me wonder how much the good doctor gave them to speak. Secondly I was under the impression that it was the jenova that shattered his mind.

Regardless, Duke's got several advantages mentally. The biggest are that he's singularly driven to win at any cost. Piss him off he comes at you full force, wants to kill you, none of that good, honorable crap. Also unlike cloud he's extremely confidant in his abilities and faculties. Cloud's been proven to mope and worry a fair bit, Duke doesn't. A second's hesitation can kill in a fight.

Shadowman wrote:

Psycho Warrior wrote:Also, you're making the argument that because they couldn't jump that high in the game

Pay attention here: I said they COULD jump that high in the game. Half of Cloud's limit breaks involve him jumping over twice his height into the air, and typically staying there for a moment. What I SAID was, because of graphical limitations, they couldn't render fights like in Advent Children.

I am paying attention and thank you for missing my point. In RPGs like FF7 it's very difficult to tell what's true to the story and what isn't. Let's take FF13, with Hope being the wimpy little coward then when battle comes out he pulls a boomerang out of his ass and joins in like he's rambo. Or in FF10 where the characters are rock-stupid and gladly charged straight into dalek death ray of the huge whale-monster that killed an advanced civilization... and no one thought to question it. I'm saying when examined closely FF characters are almost impossible to gauge and it makes talking to fans all the more frustrating.

Shadowman wrote:

Psycho Warrior wrote:I STILL say it doesn't matter, a bullet to the head kills someone.

Didn't kill Cloud. It also didn't kill him when a round from the same gun was shown passing right through his torso. That just made him mad.

So... what? Would that argument hold true if someone put 50 chain gun rounds in his face?

Shadowman wrote:

Psycho Warrior wrote:Besides you really didn't argue anything about Duke. I don't care if in FF7 bullets just result in numbers, the fact is Duke's going to draw and fire at least 15 times before Cloud can lunge or cast a spell.

Assuming Cloud stands still and doesn't dodge or counter attack or block or do anything. Or NOT do anything; this is Cloud, taking absurd amounts of damage is one of his specialties

And you forget that in those games damage allocates as numbers. Same is true for Duke, granted, but that's the thing, completely different combat systems absorb damage differently. I was assuming a veteran F'Battler like you would place them both on a fair and even field there. As for Cloud "Just standing there" that's pretty insulting. Going by FF7 it takes Cloud roughly 3 seconds to charge a spell and another second for it to start. At the same time Duke's not going to be sitting still either. Psychically Duke's a steroid popping monster who's ripped alien heads off and snapped necks with his bare hands and I'm willing to grant Cloud's alterations could be enough to make them equal. But we don't really see a lot of Cloud's super strength in the games beside the jumping and the ability to hold 200 pound swords. Another disadvantage is Cloud is solely a swordfighter, yes he has magic, but he is never seen trying to fight without it. I can only conclude this is because his unarmed skill is simply not up to par with his sword skill so he doesn't bother. Duke's on the other end of this spectrum as I've mentioned before.

I've also got to say Cloud doesn't seem to wear a lot of kevlar. Granted he's not like most anime game characters who dress like a hot topic was put through a wood thresher but still his outfit's not something I'd go into combat with and it's not going to stop bullets.

Psycho Warrior wrote:4 years in the tubes (and if I must spell it out, yes I know they probably weren't in the tubes 24/7), it makes me wonder how much the good doctor gave them to speak.

Probably after they broke out and spent two years on the run.

Psycho Warrior wrote:Secondly I was under the impression that it was the jenova that shattered his mind.

It was a lot of factors; his home being destroyed by what was, until then, his idol, four years of experimentation, being force-fed bits of a psychotic alien, lingering self-doubt from his disappointment at both failing to become a SOLDIER and failing to protect Nibelheim from Sephiroth. Mental breakdowns are never the result of only one factor. It stands to reason that he's over that now, though.

Psycho Warrior wrote:Regardless, Duke's got several advantages mentally. The biggest are that he's singularly driven to win at any cost. Piss him off he comes at you full force, wants to kill you, none of that good, honorable crap. Also unlike cloud he's extremely confidant in his abilities and faculties. Cloud's been proven to mope and worry a fair bit, Duke doesn't. A second's hesitation can kill in a fight.

Hubris isn't an advantage.

Psycho Warrior wrote:So... what? Would that argument hold true if someone put 50 chain gun rounds in his face?

Knowing Cloud? Probably.

Psycho Warrior wrote:I was assuming a veteran F'Battler like you would place them both on a fair and even field there.

I would have, except I know Cloud has been in other works. Advent Children, for instance, doesn't base damage or abilities on numbers, it bases them simply on who gets hit with what in which body part.

Psycho Warrior wrote:As for Cloud "Just standing there" that's pretty insulting. Going by FF7 it takes Cloud roughly 3 seconds to charge a spell and another second for it to start.

Certain gameplay mechanics (Typically the ones behind turn-based or ATB-based RPGs) have no bearing on a Fantasy Battle. Because if that's the case, then Duke is incapable of looking up or down.

Psycho Warrior wrote:I've also got to say Cloud doesn't seem to wear a lot of kevlar.

We just talked about this: Cloud is a total damage sponge and doesn't need body armor.

Shadowman wrote:Hubris isn't an advantage.

Neither is hesitation. Besides, Duke's confidant, not stupid. Sephiroth was a victim of Hubris, if he had simply got on with his plans and killed Cloud instead of messing with him the whole game then he would have won.

Shadowman wrote:Knowing Cloud? Probably.

If that's your excuse then why not bring the Goku threads back? Or the Mr.T threads?

Shadowman wrote:

Psycho Warrior wrote:As for Cloud "Just standing there" that's pretty insulting. Going by FF7 it takes Cloud roughly 3 seconds to charge a spell and another second for it to start.

Certain gameplay mechanics (Typically the ones behind turn-based or ATB-based RPGs) have no bearing on a Fantasy Battle. Because if that's the case, then Duke is incapable of looking up or down.

Bravo sir on missing my point once again. Even in the Advent children, where magic manifested as blobs of colored ki force they took a little while to fire. Cloud needs a free hand to use magic, and a sword like his needs both hands to be used effectively even with the ass-backwards anime rules we're playing with. Duke only needs one to fire a pistol, and even so his sword's not going to be able to shield him from some of the alien weapons or the RPG Duke has at his disposal. And we haven't even touched Duke's jetpack. Plus: Shrink weapon. The guy could easily make that sword a toothpick. XD

Psycho Warrior wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Hubris isn't an advantage.

Neither is hesitation. Besides, Duke's confidant, not stupid. Sephiroth was a victim of Hubris, if he had simply got on with his plans and killed Cloud instead of messing with him the whole game then he would have won.

And now I know you never played the game. Everything Sephiroth did was to forward his plans. And with the exception of getting beaten, it all worked. Messing with Cloud made Cloud bring the Black Materia to Sephiroth, for instance.

Psycho Warrior wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Knowing Cloud? Probably.

If that's your excuse then why not bring the Goku threads back? Or the Mr.T threads?

None of that made even the tiniest bit of sense. I want you to know that.

Psycho Warrior wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

Psycho Warrior wrote:As for Cloud "Just standing there" that's pretty insulting. Going by FF7 it takes Cloud roughly 3 seconds to charge a spell and another second for it to start.

Certain gameplay mechanics (Typically the ones behind turn-based or ATB-based RPGs) have no bearing on a Fantasy Battle. Because if that's the case, then Duke is incapable of looking up or down.

Bravo sir on missing my point once again. Even in the Advent children, where magic manifested as blobs of colored ki force they took a little while to fire.

For starters, Cloud never used magic in Advent Children. Second, the only one shown using them was Kadaj, and knowing him, he was stalling for dramatic effect.

Psycho Warrior wrote:Cloud needs a free hand to use magic, and a sword like his needs both hands to be used effectively even with the ass-backwards anime rules we're playing with.

Cloud was shown dual-wielding two of his over sized swords in AC.

Psycho Warrior wrote:Duke only needs one to fire a pistol, and even so his sword's not going to be able to shield him from some of the alien weapons or the RPG Duke has at his disposal. And we haven't even touched Duke's jetpack. Plus: Shrink weapon. The guy could easily make that sword a toothpick. XD

Assuming Cloud doesn't dodge, which he's been shown to be entirely capable of.

Regardless, you seem to be blobbing Cloud's different incarnations into one character. You have the convenience of switching between AC and the game (really surprised you aren't bringing up dissidia either). Also, if such great leaps are simply because of Clouds 'super strength and skill' then what's keeping Duke from doing the same? This fight either has to take place on neutral ground for it to make sense. Either the physics of cloud's world or Duke's would apply, or they'd have to be plunked in the middle of ours. Cloud can't jump 19 stories, and Duke can't run at 60MPH.

The way I see it cloud could use that sword to provide cover but he'd be pinned down... until Duke pulls the RPG off his back and blows his cover (and the spikey haired emo) to scrap. Otherwise Duke could simply shrink the sword and shoot him when he's wide out in the open, or freeze cloud solid and shatter him with his mighty boot or reduce the temp of the sword to such a degree that it's painful to hold. Regardless, without his sword Cloud's fighting skills are likely sub-standard compared to his swordplay.

Cloud would have a few seconds to pull a spell or item out of his ass while Duke reloads (or chucks the empty gun away and uses another with a full clip), but the fact is as soon as Duke pulls his guns up its a bullet to the torso, head, or groin. Duke could then take his time.

(( Bonus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96PdhHZC7j8 ))

Duke, Cloud never did anything this awesome:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgRRweh1jsg

Psycho Warrior wrote:Regardless, you seem to be blobbing Cloud's different incarnations into one character.

They ARE one character. A sequel doesn't suddenly mean it's a brand new character.

Psycho Warrior wrote:Also, if such great leaps are simply because of Clouds 'super strength and skill' then what's keeping Duke from doing the same?

Probably because Duke wasn't made into a super soldier and was never shown making those jumps, whereas Cloud was shown doing it in both the original game AND Advent Children.

Psycho Warrior wrote:This fight either has to take place on neutral ground for it to make sense. Either the physics of cloud's world or Duke's would apply, or they'd have to be plunked in the middle of ours. Cloud can't jump 19 stories, and Duke can't run at 60MPH.

Who's to say Cloud they can only do that because of altered physics in their own worlds?

Psycho Warrior wrote:(and the spikey haired emo)

There you go, using that word again like you know what it means. Fun fact: Cloud is no more emo than Spock.

Psycho Warrior wrote:Regardless, without his sword Cloud's fighting skills are likely sub-standard compared to his swordplay.

Swordplay IS a fighting skill.

Psycho Warrior wrote:(( Bonus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96PdhHZC7j8 ))

How is that a bonus? That trailer is a few weeks old.

Stormwolf wrote:Duke, Cloud never did anything this awesome:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgRRweh1jsg

There was that time Cloud killed Bahamut with Climhazard, without needing to use a gun.

Interesting fact: Gordon Freeman was able to fight through TWO alien invasions with no prior weapons training, no military training, just a dozen or so real-life guns, only a couple sci-fi guns, a suit of armor increasing his resistance to bullets, and a crowbar. The Marine fought off TWO invasions from Hell with no more than seven guns and a suit of armor that didn't even cover his chest. The FEAR Point Man spent a few days running through Fairport from two armies and a pair of crazed psychics carrying no more than three guns and his ability to see things in slow-mo. Isaac Clark fought through two Necromorph outbreaks with nothing more than a space suit, a few unmodified power tools, and crippling insanity. What I'm saying is, nothing Duke has ever done is even the slightest bit impressive if you've played other games. He's just a semi-retarded, juiced-up, narcissist who won't shut the hell up.

EDIT: Theory on the fight:

Cloud, using the Fusion Sword, using the combined form to shield against Duke's wasting of ammo, and detaches one of the side blades, and begins rushing at Duke. He gets close enough, and uses the detached blade to cut Duke's head off.

Alternate: Duke launches an RPG round, Cloud launches Blade Beam, taking out the projectile and its source in one hit.

Second alternate: While Duke reloads or switches guns, Cloud launches Omnislash Ver.6, and Duke is rendered into a fine paste.

Shadowman wrote:

Psycho Warrior wrote:Regardless, you seem to be blobbing Cloud's different incarnations into one character.

They ARE one character. A sequel doesn't suddenly mean it's a brand new character.

Nope, sorry. A character in a game and in a movie are always different. To me its like saying G1 cartoon Grimlock is the same as G1 comic Grimlock. As I've explained about JRPGs, we never, EVER know what powers are meant to be a part of the character's real abilities, or if its just to advance the plot due to the power of bad writing. I'll also reiterate myself for your next point: Cloud is never shown using that supposed super soldier strength other than being able to hold the sword. As for the jumps, lets face it, Advent children was simply to cash in on fanboys who simply couldn't let go and to appeal to the anime crowd. In FF7 Cloud never came off as freaking dante from DMC. I'm sure if Duke had a movie he'd be doing crazy sh#t he never could do in the games too.

Shadowman wrote:

Psycho Warrior wrote:Also, if such great leaps are simply because of Clouds 'super strength and skill' then what's keeping Duke from doing the same?

Probably because Duke wasn't made into a super soldier and was never shown making those jumps, whereas Cloud was shown doing it in both the original game AND Advent Children.

Oh you mean that WASN'T because of the graphical limitations of the game and otherwise if he didn't make those weird and awkward jumps the game would be unbeatable?

Shadowman wrote:

Psycho Warrior wrote:This fight either has to take place on neutral ground for it to make sense. Either the physics of cloud's world or Duke's would apply, or they'd have to be plunked in the middle of ours. Cloud can't jump 19 stories, and Duke can't run at 60MPH.

Who's to say Cloud they can only do that because of altered physics in their own worlds?

Lets see you run 60 MPH or jump 19 stories in a single bound. Duke could only do so because of the limitations of Duke Nukem 3D, and Cloud could only do so because of the layout of the platforms. Cloud's just lucky the japanese get off on aerial sword fights.

Shadowman wrote:

Psycho Warrior wrote:(and the spikey haired emo)

There you go, using that word again like you know what it means. Fun fact: Cloud is no more emo than Spock.

Fine, Cloud is a scene... here's another word for you: Fanboy.

Shadowman wrote:

Psycho Warrior wrote:Regardless, without his sword Cloud's fighting skills are likely sub-standard compared to his swordplay.

Swordplay IS a fighting skill.

Maybe that was a poor choice of words on my part but you should have been able to get my meaning from past posts. I guess I'll have to repeat myself; Cloud has never been shown using his fists or feet to great effect. Unarmed Duke would tear him in half.

Shadowman wrote:There was that time Cloud killed Bahamut with Climhazard, without needing to use a gun.

Interesting fact: Gordon Freeman was able to fight through TWO alien invasions with no prior weapons training, no military training, just a dozen or so real-life guns, only a couple sci-fi guns, a suit of armor increasing his resistance to bullets, and a crowbar. The Marine fought off TWO invasions from Hell with no more than seven guns and a suit of armor that didn't even cover his chest. The FEAR Point Man spent a few days running through Fairport from two armies and a pair of crazed psychics carrying no more than three guns and his ability to see things in slow-mo. Isaac Clark fought through two Necromorph outbreaks with nothing more than a space suit, a few unmodified power tools, and crippling insanity. What I'm saying is, nothing Duke has ever done is even the slightest bit impressive if you've played other games. He's just a semi-retarded, juiced-up, narcissist who won't shut the hell up.

So what you're saying is you're coming into this fight with pre-conceptions and not actually looking at who's the better fighter. You're just arguing 'Cloud is better, shut up!' I'm actually looking at the weapons, I haven't made excuses for duke or cloud, I've been examining what their abilities and weapons are. Cloud's a decent fighter with a good repertoire, but you've made arguments that he could take a full clip of chain gun rounds to the face and survive. Finally, you're saying that taking on a whole army of evil creatures alone isn't impressive? I guess that means Master chief and Ryu Hayabusa aren't that cool either.

Shadowman wrote:EDIT: Theory on the fight:

Cloud, using the Fusion Sword, using the combined form to shield against Duke's wasting of ammo, and detaches one of the side blades, and begins rushing at Duke. He gets close enough, and uses the detached blade to cut Duke's head off.

Alternate: Duke launches an RPG round, Cloud launches Blade Beam, taking out the projectile and its source in one hit.

Second alternate: While Duke reloads or switches guns, Cloud launches Omnislash Ver.6, and Duke is rendered into a fine paste.

Now you're the one assuming Duke just stands there. Also you're disregarding all of the weapons I've mentioned that duke owns. Again, you're argument for his victory is full of holes and is held up by only your desire for him to win.

Psycho Warrior wrote:

Shadowman wrote:They ARE one character. A sequel doesn't suddenly mean it's a brand new character.

Nope, sorry. A character in a game and in a movie are always different. To me its like saying G1 cartoon Grimlock is the same as G1 comic Grimlock.

Swing and a miss there. It's more like saying G1 Grimlock is the same as Grimlock from the '86 movie.

Psycho Warrior wrote:Oh you mean that WASN'T because of the graphical limitations of the game and otherwise if he didn't make those weird and awkward jumps the game would be unbeatable?

Sort of. They could render Cloud jumping up in the air for Climhazard or Braver or Omnislash, but something like the final battle in AC wasn't even remotely possible.

Psycho Warrior wrote:Fine, Cloud is a scene... here's another word for you: Fanboy.

Again, no. Spiked hair, a wool pullover and baggy cargo pants do not make someone a scene.

Here's a phrase for you: Complaining about games you've never played.

Psycho Warrior wrote:Maybe that was a poor choice of words on my part but you should have been able to get my meaning from past posts. I guess I'll have to repeat myself; Cloud has never been shown using his fists or feet to great effect. Unarmed Duke would tear him in half.

Has Duke ever been shown using more than his foot in melee combat?

Psycho Warrior wrote:RSo what you're saying is you're coming into this fight with pre-conceptions and not actually looking at who's the better fighter.

Probably, but you're doing the exact same thing.

Psycho Warrior wrote:You're just arguing 'Cloud is better, shut up!' I'm actually looking at the weapons, I haven't made excuses for duke or cloud, I've been examining what their abilities and weapons are.

No, you're pretending you played FF7, pretending the Compilation doesn't exist and thus nothing that occurred during it counts, then pretending Duke is inherently superior to Cloud.

Psycho Warrior wrote:Finally, you're saying that taking on a whole army of evil creatures isn't impressive? I guess that means Master chief and Ryu Hayabusa aren't that cool either.

Nope. It's an industry where that kind of thing is a given.

And we're back to cherry picking my responses. For the record Jadow, I own the game, have owned it before it was on PSX's greatest hits. I own the strategy guide, played through it probably 10 times. The hitch is, I haven't touched it in ten years (still have my save states, even have one where I hacked the masamune for cloud cause I loved the sound it makes). Unlike some people, I've moved on. If I played it again today I'm sure it would find it lackluster compared to the characters of Persona 4 or the open world of ultima 4. Being one of my first RPGs I had nothing to gauge it against. Ten years is a long time and you can forget a lot, I know I barely remember anything about Legend of Dragoon. Whatever, my history is not in question. You have yet to demonstrate a way that Cloud could get around Duke's shrink gun, freeze gun, and other weapons.

Secondly, its been my rule for years on FB not to post on threads containing characters I know nothing about. On that note you don't seem to have played a Duke Nukem game, or if you have you just rage quit from expecting the game to hold your hand. Of course I know you'll dice this all up and take things out of context, but I don't care. You aren't really making this a challenge by sticking to reasons WHY cloud should win.

I have no real preconceptions about Duke, while Cloud's powers are in question, much about Duke's past is in question. On that note: my fun with Duke in decades past hasn't really influenced my arguments in this fight. Even if they did, it doesn't excuse your own preconceptions.

Regardless, if we want to reach a consensus I think we need to find limitations. We're getting nowhere. Lets just state our opinions through these rounds and move on to other topics.

Real world physics and rules (damage is realistic but they both have their supposed strength but no hyper leaping and no jetpack [they're unrealistic as transportation]) and no health pick ups or health magic.
Round 1: These two are fighting in a city with a lot of cover, with basic armaments: Buster sword, pistol
Round 2: same as 1, only unarmed.
Round 3: same as 1, only with best equipment (no summons, pretty cheap to summon all of them to act as shields.)

Cityscape, now with their full game powers on. (no healing magic or health packs, no summons or no HP materia, I think we can both agree if Cloud should win it should be on his own merits. Also don't want bahamut as a meat shield. Its not FFX )
(Cloud can leap several stories tall, Duke can run 60 MPH, and )
Round 4: basic armaments, (buster sword, iron bangle, say, 5th level with 2 materia) (Pistol, shotgun, 50% armor and 2 RPG rounds)
Round 5: Full out, best armor, best weapons,(no Mystile or elemental canceling materias, items, or armor)

Round 1: Cloud

Round 2: Duke, while Cloud probably has some hand-to-hand training, I don't think he's on the level of, say, Tifa.

Round 3: Again, probably Duke, though I'm not sure if the Fusion Sword is superior to Ultima Weapon.

Round 4: Probably Cloud (The problem with RPG rounds is that, with the except of HL2's laser-guided ones, they're damn near impossible to hit a small, quickly-moving target with)

Round 5: Tie breaker round! Again, not sure where the Fusion Sword falls on the scale of Cloud's weapons. Six swords or one? Duke has the advantage of a larger, more powerful arsenal but Cloud's got speed and agility. I think it depends on if Cloud can keep moving long enough to launch Omnislash or one of its upgraded versions. If he can do that, Cloud wins, otherwise, it goes to Duke.

Round 1: This almost feels like a first hit wins, in which it depends on if Duke can get a bullet in Cloud's leg and cripple him. The cover does wonders for Cloud in this fight, I see Duke either getting that leg shot and putting a bullet in cloud's head as a result or Cloud ducking between cover and getting a good swing at Duke's torso or legs.
Round 2: Duke, both for the reason Jadow stated involving Tifa and because he has ripped a cyborg alien's head off before.
Round 3: The realistic damage here is where Duke gets an edge. After all, with RPG rounds Duke doesn't need to hit cloud head on, the concussive force of one hitting the ground near Cloud would knock him over. If he doesn't land on the other side of the resulting cloud of dust and smoke Duke could line up another shot at the prone hero.
Round 4: Duke's the kind of guy that does a lot of collateral damage. I see them blowing up the fire hydrants flooding the street. This would give cloud an easier chance to harm him using his magic despite Duke's speed. Duke could injure cloud here, but hitting a target that jumps like that is difficult.
Round 5: Here's where one of my peeves about some RPGs comes in. I never really understood how some swords can bisect a monster better than others. But in all games I guess it does come down to a game of numbers for the purpose of being challenging. If Duke can't hit cloud with either of his fight ending weapons (shrink gun and ice gun) I see the fight being a long one, with both of them being bleeding, heavily injured and out of breath. from here I can see Cloud having his limit gauge full he'd launch his best limit break and charge Duke. Unless Duke has one RPG left as a last F### you (taking them both out) Cloud wins this fight.

((I will admit this whole thread I've had this boss fight in my head: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSL9jaDdyFE ))

Psycho Warrior wrote:((I will admit this whole thread I've had this boss fight in my head: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSL9jaDdyFE ))

What game is that? (The company that made it must have stopped paying attention to JRPGs because all of them DO use full voice acting nowadays, except ones on handheld at least) Also, that room looks remarkably like one of the first areas in Metal Gear Solid 1. Probably not a coincidence.

Shadowman wrote:

Psycho Warrior wrote:((I will admit this whole thread I've had this boss fight in my head: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSL9jaDdyFE ))

What game is that? (The company that made it must have stopped paying attention to JRPGs because all of them DO use full voice acting nowadays, except ones on handheld at least) Also, that room looks remarkably like one of the first areas in Metal Gear Solid 1. Probably not a coincidence.

Eat lead, the return of max hazard.

I thought it was clever. Like how they made fun of SOCOM by making a kid-friendly shooter called 'soak'em' and Duke was called Nuke Winter and that they had been working on him 'forever'.

mario is called captain carpenter, mario's original profession before he was a plumber.

I'm tempted to say that Duke win on the basis that he's Duke Nukem and that Cloud is, well...Cloud.

Cloud looks like a girl. Therefore, he would lose like one.

Cloud, because as much as I hate FF games, they are at least well made games.

Dead Metal wrote:Cloud, because as much as I hate FF games, they are at least well made games.

You mean, like dirge of Cerberus?