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When I get my wife knocked up I will buy cheap knock offs.

That way my child can play with Transformers without hurting my wallet or my eyes when it get trashed.

By the way you can't blame knock-offs to be ripping of buyers thinking it's an original. It's the seller that needs to be held responsible for this.

wow, those totally look legit. obviously if you buy them in package you know they aren't official but if you ever find them on their own...i could see how someone might think its official. and wow they actually put two character from the technobots in there as a replacement? weird. lol

but i mean toy quality aside, these look near identical so how come these sorta companies aren't getting their asses sued on a daily basis? how are they legally able to make and sell these?

Bouncy X wrote:wow, those totally look legit. obviously if you buy them in package you know they aren't official but if you ever find them on their own...i could see how someone might think its official. and wow they actually put two character from the technobots in there as a replacement? weird. lol

but i mean toy quality aside, these look near identical so how come these sorta companies aren't getting their asses sued on a daily basis? how are they legally able to make and sell these?

They can't, everything they do is illegal to various degrees. The main problem is that often the company information is plain missing to avoid detection, on both the packaging, and the toys they make.

Torneira wrote:When I get my wife knocked up I will buy cheap knock offs.

That way my child can play with Transformers without hurting my wallet or my eyes when it get trashed.

By the way you can't blame knock-offs to be ripping of buyers thinking it's an original. It's the seller that needs to be held responsible for this.

Er ... when you go up the food chain, even at the highest point, everyone is selling them at some point.

Sometiems even toy stores get suckered. A bunch of KO Metroplexes got shipped to BBTS instead of the real reissue ones and BBTS was left footing the bill after it was noticed they were KOs.

I don't mind these "high end" KOs being sold AS KOs. Hell, KO toys is called "KO Toys". But when someone on ebay fools a collector into buying soemthign they don't want to ... well, that's just not right.

And, sadly, someday these KOS will get mixed up with originals. Out of sheer ignorance.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Bouncy X wrote:wow, those totally look legit. obviously if you buy them in package you know they aren't official but if you ever find them on their own...i could see how someone might think its official. and wow they actually put two character from the technobots in there as a replacement? weird. lol

but i mean toy quality aside, these look near identical so how come these sorta companies aren't getting their asses sued on a daily basis? how are they legally able to make and sell these?

They can't, everything they do is illegal to various degrees. The main problem is that often the company information is plain missing to avoid detection, on both the packaging, and the toys they make.

yean but isnt the fact the toys are clearly identical copies enough to warrant suing or arresting or whatever? i understand the company logos etc. may not be present but like in this particular case...they look exactly the same down to the color scheme. so you'd think that is breaking some copyright issue or whatnot. or is the fact they are made of cheaper or even just different material enough to dissuade things in the technical eyes of these laws?

Bouncy X wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Bouncy X wrote:wow, those totally look legit. obviously if you buy them in package you know they aren't official but if you ever find them on their own...i could see how someone might think its official. and wow they actually put two character from the technobots in there as a replacement? weird. lol

but i mean toy quality aside, these look near identical so how come these sorta companies aren't getting their asses sued on a daily basis? how are they legally able to make and sell these?

They can't, everything they do is illegal to various degrees. The main problem is that often the company information is plain missing to avoid detection, on both the packaging, and the toys they make.

yean but isnt the fact the toys are clearly identical copies enough to warrant suing or arresting or whatever? i understand the company logos etc. may not be present but like in this particular case...they look exactly the same down to the color scheme. so you'd think that is breaking some copyright issue or whatnot. or is the fact they are made of cheaper or even just different material enough to dissuade things in the technical eyes of these laws?

Yes; you just need to know who you need to sue. Plus, the KO's are pretty obvious and from small time companies, who quickly go out of business. That pretty much spoils Hasbro's plans on taking them to court, which could take years.
The furthest Hasbro has gone so far is ordering stores, spefically discount chains like Big Lots! to not carry KO's of Transformer toys during the movie craze.

Many of you would do well to review information regarding KOs to separate fact from myth.

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Bootleg

Our own rationalization seems to be the only legitimate reason, if you can call it one, for the purchase of KO items of any kind.

I have 3 reasons rationalized:

1.) Assist in properly identifiying authentic items when I enter the market for a figure. I may pick up 1 (at most), and it's sold soon after.
2.) Perhaps a 'clear' variant or recolor that would most likely never be produced by Hasbro/TT. For example, Clear Sludge and Slag.
3.) A stand-in until I can get an authentic figure if I want it badly enough. I have 2 KOs right now. G1 Defensor and Devastator. I'm in the hunt for original MIB, stickers unapplied samples. When I find them, the KOs will be gone from my collection. I suspect Menasor will join Devastator and Defensor.

My reasons are no better or worse than anyone else's. The fact is, they are all wrong, no matter how we rationalize them. Selling and purchasing KOs is wrong and it amounts to theft.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:

Torneira wrote:When I get my wife knocked up I will buy cheap knock offs.

That way my child can play with Transformers without hurting my wallet or my eyes when it get trashed.

By the way you can't blame knock-offs to be ripping of buyers thinking it's an original. It's the seller that needs to be held responsible for this.

Er ... when you go up the food chain, even at the highest point, everyone is selling them at some point.

Sometiems even toy stores get suckered. A bunch of KO Metroplexes got shipped to BBTS instead of the real reissue ones and BBTS was left footing the bill after it was noticed they were KOs.

I don't mind these "high end" KOs being sold AS KOs. Hell, KO toys is called "KO Toys". But when someone on ebay fools a collector into buying soemthign they don't want to ... well, that's just not right.

And, sadly, someday these KOS will get mixed up with originals. Out of sheer ignorance.

Get your facts straight, please. You may end up damging the reputation of legitimate retailers. BBTS has never sold KO Metroplex. It was TFsource. In fact, TFsource continues to sell them to this day:

KO Metroplex in stock at TFsource
http://www.tfsource.com/products/view/product_id/840/

BBTS official statement on KO Metroplex
http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/ ... lex/14804/

HighPrime wrote:My reasons are no better or worse than anyone else's. The fact is, they are all wrong, no matter how we rationalize them. Selling and purchasing KOs is wrong and it amounts to theft.

just because something is illegal does not necessarily make it wrong. Pretty sure no American can say otherwise with a straight face.


I also don't see how me spending money on a KO of a toy that Hasbro/TT are not selling in stores is costing them money. Honestly, the only KOs I do have are some Legends-sized Constructicons I got for a couple of pounds, but if I were to go and buy a KO of something that hasn't been reissued, I wouldn't feel like I was stealing from Hasbro. The company making these is stealing the real manufacturer's intellectual property, if not their actual property in the molds for these things.

What I'm doing is refusing to pay some guy who has hoarded these things in-package (thus depriving kids at the time of getting them to play with) for 25years of the £200 he's charging for something that cost £40 or something when it was released. And I'm still getting something inferior, and well aware of it. Outside of the comic-book market, I can't think of such drastic inflation in prices over the years.

Besides, I'm going to open toys when I buy them. If I was to buy a boxed Menasor from the 80s, and open it, I'm sure some collectors would be shocked and appalled. If I buy a KO, that original is still there for someone who likes having MISB collectibles.

craggy wrote:

HighPrime wrote:My reasons are no better or worse than anyone else's. The fact is, they are all wrong, no matter how we rationalize them. Selling and purchasing KOs is wrong and it amounts to theft.

just because something is illegal does not necessarily make it wrong. Pretty sure no American can say otherwise with a straight face.


I also don't see how me spending money on a KO of a toy that Hasbro/TT are not selling in stores is costing them money. Honestly, the only KOs I do have are some Legends-sized Constructicons I got for a couple of pounds, but if I were to go and buy a KO of something that hasn't been reissued, I wouldn't feel like I was stealing from Hasbro. The company making these is stealing the real manufacturer's intellectual property, if not their actual property in the molds for these things.

What I'm doing is refusing to pay some guy who has hoarded these things in-package (thus depriving kids at the time of getting them to play with) for 25years of the £200 he's charging for something that cost £40 or something when it was released. And I'm still getting something inferior, and well aware of it. Outside of the comic-book market, I can't think of such drastic inflation in prices over the years.

Besides, I'm going to open toys when I buy them. If I was to buy a boxed Menasor from the 80s, and open it, I'm sure some collectors would be shocked and appalled. If I buy a KO, that original is still there for someone who likes having MISB collectibles.

My statements have nothing to do with law. And you've proved my point; rationalization on what justifies a 'comfy' feeling in your mind on the legitimacy of buying a KO.

Hasbro and Takara make transformers for one reason: money. There's a market for it. It's obvious that the KO markers want a piece of this action. This robs Hasbro/TT of the money due them for their ideas/inventions. Not only that, when these sort of KOs flood the market, it lessens the chances that authentic reissues will be made as the market is saturated. Even worse, these Kos damage the reputation of Hasbro/TT. Have you ever held KO wheeljack in your hand and an authentic Wheeljack from Hasbro/TT? The people who aren't TF-savy associate the lack of quality with Hasbro/TT and lose trust. This damges the brand.

What I'm talking about is theft of intellectual propety. These KO company have absolutely no right to be selling anything with the Transformers brand name on it, let alone duplicate copies of them.

True, High Prime.

However, if Hasbro/TT did put out reissues of these toys maybe less people would buy the KOs? I don't know if there is a KO of G1 Hot Rod, but I bought the Reissue because I'd always wanted it, it was in the shops and I had the money. Same with Soundwave.

Yes, it is IP theft on the manufacturers part, but I see less of a problem with KOs of decades old toys that are not being sold any more by the original manufacturers than I do, say KOs of the new Universe or TFA lines.

To people confusing KOs (often clearly identifiable as such - TRANSMORPHERS or SUPER ROBOTO MCCHANGE-A-ROONIE on the box) with legit products and damaging Hasbro's good name, those folks are pretty silly. And you're blaming the unscrupulous for the actions of the unintelligent.

Okay, I misremembered. TF Source, not BBTS. I don't think it'd damage their rep as I clearly say they were ripped off.

Anyhow, the intellectual thing doesn't bother me so much. It's true that it's wrong to trample on HasTak's intellectual property, especially to the point where they're copying the toy. I just ... don't care that much about that aspect. No excuses made here.

It bothers me MUCH more that people could trick others into buying something they didn't pay for and that these KOs could "contaminate" the collectors market. The quality, as I understand it, isn't up there with the originals, but that's pretty hard to tell from photos.

Yeah, I'm a selfish fan. I can admit it.

craggy wrote:True, High Prime.

However, if Hasbro/TT did put out reissues of these toys maybe less people would buy the KOs? I don't know if there is a KO of G1 Hot Rod, but I bought the Reissue because I'd always wanted it, it was in the shops and I had the money. Same with Soundwave.

Yes, it is IP theft on the manufacturers part, but I see less of a problem with KOs of decades old toys that are not being sold any more by the original manufacturers than I do, say KOs of the new Universe or TFA lines.

To people confusing KOs (often clearly identifiable as such - TRANSMORPHERS or SUPER ROBOTO MCCHANGE-A-ROONIE on the box) with legit products and damaging Hasbro's good name, those folks are pretty silly. And you're blaming the unscrupulous for the actions of the unintelligent.

Let me preface this by saying we're justing chatting here. No one is looking for blood I certaintly don't think I'm better than anyone else, either.

IP theft is theft. There's no time limits. You mentioned there's a difference between wrong and illegal, so I'm not going mention ongoing copyrights (directly) Even though Hasbro hasn't reissued a figure you want, there's still no justification for it's purchase as a KO other than personal rationalization that makes it OK.

Whether we're talking about a company that issues 'Super-Happy-Amazing 5-bot Dingyman' that looks like Menasor, but is not named as such or even the same size; or a like for like KO of the original Menasor; a KO is a KO. There's nothing stopping any of these companies from coming up with their own ideas and product.

And you're mixed up; I blamed the unscrupulous, not the unintelligent. They've got their own problems. However, I would consider it my duty to at least provide the education to the less-informed so that they can make an informed choice. I can't make them use the information to their advantage, though.

Now both of us are intelligent, informed consumers. We know full well what we're doing when we buy KOs and who we are harming; whether we want to believe it or not.

oh, without a doubt it's personal rationalization, but that's the best kind

don't worry, I realise we're having a discussion here. I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree (whilst actually kinda agreeing as well) that you don't like KOs at all, while I see a point to them until legit versions of the products come back into circulation. I've even seen some KOs that I've liked the look of more than the originals (for different colours, or sizes than the originals) but like I said, I've yet to take the plunge and actually buy some. I don't really begrudge anyone that does though.

craggy wrote:oh, without a doubt it's personal rationalization, but that's the best kind

don't worry, I realise we're having a discussion here. I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree (whilst actually kinda agreeing as well) that you don't like KOs at all, while I see a point to them until legit versions of the products come back into circulation. I've even seen some KOs that I've liked the look of more than the originals (for different colours, or sizes than the originals) but like I said, I've yet to take the plunge and actually buy some. I don't really begrudge anyone that does though.

I wouldn't go out and say I don't like KOs, but let's not kid ourselves on their legitimacy, either.

Good discussion

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Okay, I misremembered. TF Source, not BBTS. I don't think it'd damage their rep as I clearly say they were ripped off.

Anyhow, the intellectual thing doesn't bother me so much. It's true that it's wrong to trample on HasTak's intellectual property, especially to the point where they're copying the toy. I just ... don't care that much about that aspect. No excuses made here.

It bothers me MUCH more that people could trick others into buying something they didn't pay for and that these KOs could "contaminate" the collectors market. The quality, as I understand it, isn't up there with the originals, but that's pretty hard to tell from photos.

Yeah, I'm a selfish fan. I can admit it.

No worries. Your point was understood, though. Additionally, I was generalizing damage to a retailers brand, not necessarily TFsource. The 2 places I frequent the most are TFsource and BBTS. Loyal patron to both for many years

From a cost standpoint though I think that I would rather display G1 KOs than the originals. Compare it to an extreme example of displaying a copy of a painting instead of the original or a copy of a Ming vase to the original.

In the end it is Hasbro/Tak/Tomy's collective fault for leaving this part of the collector's marketplace dry. Is it that hard for them to re-release these G1 combiner sets in their original boxed glory and slap on the box 25th anniversary edition? Not in my opinion. Lost opportunity that the KOs are simply taking advantage of. Could the KO producer do this? Yes but why would they? They realize what some would want to do with these figures once produced. Sad but true.

Some G1 collectors are at least happy that these KOs are being made, but I am a purist. I will not however judge those that want to buy these. Hell even I would get more (only have G1 Swoop when he came out to see what he was like) just from the cost savings vs. owing the originals. KOs will not go away. I do agree though that those that try to pass the off as originals to less educated buyers should be tarred and feathered. THAT IS NOT COOL. The KOs are here to stay though and in the end you have to accept the bad with the good as with everything in life. NOTHING IS PERFECT.

I will say that I wish more KO manufacturers did crazy/boring colour schemes. The recent orange ramjet was pretty cool looking. The grey Blitzwing and Octane/Tankor were also nice.

I gotta admit, looking at the KO Golds won me over. So shiny. I kinda want one.

I have the highquality KO dinobots and they are very hard to tell they are knockoffs. Grimlock even has Takara and Hasbro stamps on him.

Unicronic wrote:I have the highquality KO dinobots and they are very hard to tell they are knockoffs. Grimlock even has Takara and Hasbro stamps on him.

The dinobots maybe of higher quality, but that is relative. Of the recent high quality KOs, they are among the worst. Wheeljack gets the grand prize, though.

The dinobots are fairly easy to distinguish compared to the originals. For one the paint is a different shade and chips easy, the chrome on swoop is not even close to the original color or texture. Sludge is missing details on his chrome and plastic. Slags horns aren't sized properly. I could go on....

They are ok for stand-ins, I suppose. Perhaps I'm too snobbish, but they don't hold a candle to the originals.

If KO Menasor is anything like KO Defensor, though, the average not-taking-collecting-too-seriously crowd will be in for a treat.

I mean no disrespect to anyone, but I ask why such negativity on knock offs ???

I dont even own any knock offs, but I support them to the fullest. I own an original G1 Bruticus, Devastator, Piranahcon, and Abominus plus 3 of the Stunticons from the 80's. Instead of worrying about the value of them, Im supporting the ever growing transformers fanbase by endorsing knock offs. If we dont pass on retro style toys to the younger generation at affordable prices, the hobby will die with us and those originals you cherish so much will decline in value like many other 80's collectibles with no fanbase.

Plus, I never got to complete my Menasor in the 80's because I wasnt doing well in school and mom and dad wasnt buying no rewards for F's on the report card...LOL I can finally get my hands on him brand new !!!

Rated X wrote:I mean no disrespect to anyone, but I ask why such negativity on knock offs ???

Cause it's stealing? Your ok with people stealing Hasbro and Takara's intellectual property?

GetterDragun wrote:

Rated X wrote:I mean no disrespect to anyone, but I ask why such negativity on knock offs ???

Cause it's stealing? Your ok with people stealing Hasbro and Takara's intellectual property?

Cmon...

The molds are 25 years old. The people who invented them are probally in a wheelchair. And Im sure the rights have been sold off so many times that the inventors probally dont even know the names of the people who currently own them. With all due respect, stop worrying about the corporate machine and think of the fans that made them rich...

Cmon...

The molds are 25 years old. The people who invented them are probally in a wheelchair. And Im sure the rights have been sold off so many times that the inventors probally dont even know the names of the people who currently own them. With all due respect, stop worrying about the corporate machine and think of the fans that made them rich.

bottom line if Hasbro and Takara want to stop knock-offs for good, they need to stop being greedy and re-issue everything. When they repealed prohibition at the end of the 1930's, all the mobsters went broke cause their gold mine (bootleg whiskey) was available legal to the public. Supply and demand determines what bootleggers are going to invest money into. With that being said, the current legal owners of the molds need to give the fans what they want and stop hoarding.