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BotCon loose sets SOLD OUT (You're done son!)

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Postby TENIME_art » Wed May 16, 2007 3:31 pm

Flux Convoy wrote:Man, I am so tired of hearing the wah wah wah of people who didn't step up. If you didn't buy it when it was available, guess what? There's only you to blame. These would never have been available for sale any other way. Think otherwise? Well rock on with your conspiracy theories then. Just do it quietly so the rest of us don't have to listen to the whining. Why is it that every time Botcon rolls around people have to bitch about the availablity of the figures? It's been the same way for over ten years. Let it go man.
:BOT:


The funniest thing is, if he were as poor as some of us are (I've never complained about not getting one, I knew from the get go, that I couldn't), he'd be one of those he's complaining about. But, since he's loaded, he can make fun of those who aren't.
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Postby Koloth » Wed May 16, 2007 4:10 pm

Had I known in advance what the con exclusive were going to be and had not run into financial trouble last month I would certainly have picked these up. As it is Thrust is the only one that can't be simply repainted anyway.

Still I think the one point of contention is many believe this was a bad move on Hasbro's part as purely a financial decision. In past years there was maybe one figure in the set that was a must have. And even then most of the time it wasn't that great a figure anyway. Ironhide from towline is pretty obvious and if you had the painting and customizing skillsit wasn't really hard to make one of your own. This year Hasbro putting out a set that many people have been clamoring for since Cl SS was first revealled. A set that they could have made a lot more money on by selling as a production piece rather than a limited edition Con exclusive.
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Postby Flux Convoy » Thu May 17, 2007 5:21 am

Motto: "Chaos... is coming!..."
Cyclonus_3009 wrote:
Flux Convoy wrote:Man, I am so tired of hearing the wah wah wah of people who didn't step up. If you didn't buy it when it was available, guess what? There's only you to blame. These would never have been available for sale any other way. Think otherwise? Well rock on with your conspiracy theories then. Just do it quietly so the rest of us don't have to listen to the whining. Why is it that every time Botcon rolls around people have to bitch about the availablity of the figures? It's been the same way for over ten years. Let it go man.
:BOT:



Well when you see something you would like to see on mass market and then you find out their exclusives and you have to pay money that you don't have cause your not a member you get a little PO!

Here's the thing, and I even stated this in my original post... They were never coming to retail in the first place. These figures and Botcon itself have been planned for a good long time. With these being part of the exclusives, they would never have come out any other way. Being a club member only shaves forty bucks off the registration anyway. Lastly no, I wouldn't be PO'd because if I want something bad enough I make it work for me. Everyone has the means to raise a couple hundred bucks in a few months time. Whether it's by selling things, working your job or tucking away lawn mowing money. It doesn't matter. Regardless of what I have or will ever say people will always complain and say they aren't able to do something. What you do about it shows your measure. I don't mean to sound harsh. It just gets under my skin.
:BOT:
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Postby Flux Convoy » Thu May 17, 2007 5:26 am

Motto: "Chaos... is coming!..."
TENIME_art wrote:
Flux Convoy wrote:Man, I am so tired of hearing the wah wah wah of people who didn't step up. If you didn't buy it when it was available, guess what? There's only you to blame. These would never have been available for sale any other way. Think otherwise? Well rock on with your conspiracy theories then. Just do it quietly so the rest of us don't have to listen to the whining. Why is it that every time Botcon rolls around people have to bitch about the availablity of the figures? It's been the same way for over ten years. Let it go man.
:BOT:


The funniest thing is, if he were as poor as some of us are (I've never complained about not getting one, I knew from the get go, that I couldn't), he'd be one of those he's complaining about. But, since he's loaded, he can make fun of those who aren't.

No the funniest thing is watching you make an ass of yourself as you presume to know me or what I earn. I'm hardly loaded. I have bills just like everyone. I have a full car insurance payment coming up in the same week as Botcon, I'm going through a divorce I didn't want and I have the added costs of attending, flying to, staying and buying the add ons at Botcon. I'm not making fun of anyone I'm stating that I'm sick of seeing the inanity of people who refuse to make life work for them. I'm emotionally in a world of hurt and my finances aren't the greatest but I wouldn't let anything stop me. I deserve to be happy for 3 days straight and I made it work. Don't want to try? Fine, not my problem.
:BOT:
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Postby Bonger » Thu May 17, 2007 5:48 am

Rock on brother ;)^
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Postby Leonardo » Thu May 17, 2007 6:00 am

I don't think people should be so upset. Can't people who aren't going to get this set be happy for those that are?
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Postby Counterpunch » Thu May 17, 2007 6:06 am

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TENIME_art wrote:But, since he's loaded, he can make fun of those who aren't.


I'm loaded.

But that's largely due to time travel.

Anyway, in the future, Wellfare covers Botcon.
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Postby Tigertrack » Thu May 17, 2007 6:58 am

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Let's bring it back guys... calm down.

The points have been hashed to death...let's leave them buried now, okay??? :???:
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Postby Roboto750 » Thu May 17, 2007 7:02 am

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tigertracks 24 wrote:Let's bring it back guys... calm down.

The points have been hashed to death...let's leave them buried now, okay??? :???:


I second that! ;)^
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Postby Counterpunch » Thu May 17, 2007 7:08 am

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tigertracks 24 wrote:Let's bring it back guys... calm down.

The points have been hashed to death...let's leave them buried now, okay??? :???:


In the future, nothing stays buried.

:-(
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Postby Leonardo » Thu May 17, 2007 7:15 am

Counterpunch wrote:In the future, nothing stays buried.

:-(


That sounds like a movie tagline. The unhappy smiley could be the movie logo and will become even more familiar than the Ghostbusters badge.

I don't know what I'm talking about, but I do know that I can't believe we're having a Botcon Classics debate again after CB slapped up a sticky the other week.
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Postby Counterpunch » Thu May 17, 2007 8:41 am

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Leonardo wrote:
Counterpunch wrote:In the future, nothing stays buried.

:-(


That sounds like a movie tagline. The unhappy smiley could be the movie logo and will become even more familiar than the Ghostbusters badge.

I don't know what I'm talking about, but I do know that I can't believe we're having a Botcon Classics debate again after CB slapped up a sticky the other week.


In the future, not reading stickies is punishable by death.
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Postby Leonardo » Thu May 17, 2007 8:43 am

Counterpunch wrote:
Leonardo wrote:
Counterpunch wrote:In the future, nothing stays buried.

:-(


That sounds like a movie tagline. The unhappy smiley could be the movie logo and will become even more familiar than the Ghostbusters badge.

I don't know what I'm talking about, but I do know that I can't believe we're having a Botcon Classics debate again after CB slapped up a sticky the other week.


In the future, not reading stickies is punishable by death.


Sounds like a dream.
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Postby Scaleface » Thu May 17, 2007 6:23 pm

do can they still release Thundercracker in general retail if they put him in his Action Master rainbow colors?
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Postby Koloth » Thu May 17, 2007 8:00 pm

They can release all of them to retail so long as they don't use the same paint scheme as the Botcon figures.
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Postby Counterpunch » Thu May 17, 2007 9:03 pm

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Koloth wrote:They can release all of them to retail so long as they don't use the same paint scheme as the Botcon figures.


Actually, no they can't.

FunPublications owns the wings on Thrust and the headmold on Dreadwind.

Those two are entirely out.

Pete at Botcon basically said that there is no way Hasbro can or will release these figures. FunPublications owns them the same way that Bandai owns the G1 Jetfire mold.
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Postby TFBuyer » Thu May 17, 2007 9:30 pm

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Counterpunch wrote:
Koloth wrote:They can release all of them to retail so long as they don't use the same paint scheme as the Botcon figures.


Actually, no they can't.

FunPublications owns the wings on Thrust and the headmold on Dreadwind.

Those two are entirely out.

Pete at Botcon basically said that there is no way Hasbro can or will release these figures. FunPublications owns them the same way that Bandai owns the G1 Jetfire mold.


Wait...is that in the future or right now? You've got me all confused. :P
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Postby Leonardo » Fri May 18, 2007 1:38 am

TFBuyer wrote:
Counterpunch wrote:
Koloth wrote:They can release all of them to retail so long as they don't use the same paint scheme as the Botcon figures.


Actually, no they can't.

FunPublications owns the wings on Thrust and the headmold on Dreadwind.

Those two are entirely out.

Pete at Botcon basically said that there is no way Hasbro can or will release these figures. FunPublications owns them the same way that Bandai owns the G1 Jetfire mold.


Wait...is that in the future or right now? You've got me all confused. :P


:lol:

I think it's a good thing, anyway. This way, those who have paid the BotCon prices won't be cheated later on down the line.
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Postby Scaleface » Fri May 18, 2007 3:51 am

Yes, they have definitely screwed up royally. Can FP decide to go mint another set for a couple? The figures obviously sold well, and they could sell more. It's kinda silly that the con exclusives sold out a month before the convention opened. Does this usually happen? When if someone complains they got a defective one and need a replacement?
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Postby Bonger » Fri May 18, 2007 4:05 am

Scaleface wrote:Yes, they have definitely screwed up royally. Can FP decide to go mint another set for a couple? The figures obviously sold well, and they could sell more. It's kinda silly that the con exclusives sold out a month before the convention opened. Does this usually happen? When if someone complains they got a defective one and need a replacement?


Good point about the defectives. Maybe they have historical numbers as to the number of defectives that slip past QC and make that many % extra?

Or maybe if you get a defective one, ure just sol.
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Postby Counterpunch » Fri May 18, 2007 6:52 am

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Scaleface wrote:Yes, they have definitely screwed up royally. Can FP decide to go mint another set for a couple? The figures obviously sold well, and they could sell more. It's kinda silly that the con exclusives sold out a month before the convention opened. Does this usually happen? When if someone complains they got a defective one and need a replacement?


Really, and not to be rude here, but does no one understand that as production numbers go up, costs of production go down?

Then this has to be balanced with the minimum number of units produced to turn a profit.

When the accountants say, predicted sales are X, cost is Y, and Profit is Z; in this instance Z < Y, then the toys do not get made.

It would appear that someone somewhere said, "we won't make a profit in producing another 3 sets of the jet mold."
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Postby Scaleface » Fri May 18, 2007 7:37 am

I can understand the Botcon sets costing more than those produced for retail, but is there any reason why THIS set costs about twice the set of BotCon 2005?

With this set's popularity, you'd think they would at least consider making more loose sets and selling them online. I'd like a simple Seeker 3 pack for half price please. No need for Bugbite or Dreadwind (or whoever).
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Postby Counterpunch » Fri May 18, 2007 8:02 am

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Scaleface wrote:I can understand the Botcon sets costing more than those produced for retail, but is there any reason why THIS set costs about twice the set of BotCon 2005?


Botcon 05' price was @ $265
(http://www.transformersclub.com/shop/index.cfm?do=detail&productid=838)
Botcon 07' price was $279

I don't understand what the big deal is?

Scaleface wrote:With this set's popularity, you'd think they would at least consider making more loose sets and selling them online. I'd like a simple Seeker 3 pack for half price please. No need for Bugbite or Dreadwind (or whoever).


Why? It's a huge drawing point for BotCon.

You know, everyone had a chance to buy a set. Everyone did. It was costly, but the option was there.
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Postby Asderiphel » Fri May 18, 2007 11:23 am

This is my last essay on this subject. It’s long, so forgive me.

The Classics line had a defined role (filler) and a defined budget. When the possibility of Wave 4 came up, I’m sure somebody in development said “Hey, we could do the additional seekers, a Sideswipe, and a bunch of other repaints” and somebody else, in upper management said, “We shut it down, because we’re not shipping anything new for two months prior to the movie toys. We want those shelves clear. We’re not going to compete with ourselves.”

What we can glean from Botcon is that there were 1050 boxed sets, + 400 loose, + a phantom ‘50' (50 unaccounted for sets that go to other retailers, con guests, etc) to come up with a total run of 1500. If we assume standard operating procedure for a small business venture, then we have to assume their working on a double mark-up (cost x 2). We’ll also assume that 66-70% of the boxed set price goes to administrative and con related expenses, and we come back to the loose bagged set price of $180.

$180 x 1500 sets = $270,000 divided by 2 (cost) = $135,000 divided by 5 molds = $27,000 per mold, cost or roughly $18 a figure on average. This model is based on the lowest possible profit margin, and the highest possible cost.

Now, I don’t know what Hasbro’s standard production run is, but I do know, based on store invoices (see Cujo’s Classic Devastator post waaay back), that the big retailers pay 70% of the retail cost. The standard clearance price on Target’s TF’s always come up at 30% off initially, so this theory seems to apply to all the big3 toy retailers.

The absolute lowest guess I can come up with is the rule of 2, that every major retailer gets 2 copies of a mass released figure. There are 1500 Targets, 1200 TRU’s, and over 4500 Wal-marts in the US alone. That would mean, at the least, every mass released mold has a production run of almost 15,000 (14,440) just in the United States. This example does not include K-mart, Freds, Wal-greens, etc...or any non-US market.

In the Classics example, for mass release (non-exclusives) there are 8 different characters, comprising 6 original molds, 1 repaint, and 1 retool (slightly reworked mold). Assuming the rule of 2, all of these figures were sold to mass market retailers for the sum of $806,400. If Hasbro also works on a double mark up strategy, we can assume:

$806,400 divided by 2 = $403,200 divided by 8 molds = $50,400 a piece divided by 14440 (the lowest number of figures on the market) = $3.49 apiece. This is the highest possible number Hasbro pays for a mass released TF s.

How much does a 30,000 figure run lower the cost? 50K? 100K? Based on the Botcon exclusive numbers versus the mass market assumptions, Hasbro gets nearly 10 times as many figures at roughly double the cost. I think that seems a little crazy myself, but there must be a cheap way to get these figures produced, because there are bootleggers all over China doing a good job at relatively low cost, so maybe these numbers aren’t too far off.

If we say that there are 75,000 figures pressed from any individual mold, and that Hasbro pays a flat $50,000 for 15,000 units, then they spend $250,000 per mold (x eight) for a cool 2 million. They would then pocket 2 million in profits. But this example is completely flawed, as the price that Hasbro pays for 75,000 figures should approach $125,000 (or far less, I’d guess), and give them a cost of $1.66 per figure. Add in a 25% mark-up for packaging, and Hasbro pays $2.10 per figure.

Which I still think is high. And repaints, conventional wisdom tells us, cost Hasbro less than the new molds. So are they half price? 1/4? If Bumblebee was produced at $2.85 a piece, was Cliffjumper produced at less than $1? I don’t know.

In order for Hasbro to ‘stop making profits’, they would have to press less than 5000 and sell them for less than $2.50 a piece. Hasbro earned over $640 million dollars last year, and holds the licenses on over a dozen high profile and profitable brands, including Marvel, Nerf, & My Little Pony. I’ve never seen the numbers for TF alone, but I think they made 154 million on Star Wars alone last year, but had to pay out 50+ million in licensing. We are talking about a company that, if the TF movie does well, could see sales top $800 million dollars next year. My numbers may be completely wrong, but Hasbro, rest assured, knows exactly what they are doing.

3 seekers don’t break the bank, or even cause them momentary financial concern. This decision had nothing to do with sales at the retail level. They didn’t want the hassle before the movie toys started shipping, wanted to keep their own shelf space clear at large retailers, and in the process, gave FP a great set of exclusives to drive up the interest for Botcon.

Done.
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