Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

I will give this a chance. However as I type that, I realise I've been saying that since IDW got the TF franchise.

Personally, I haven't enjoyed IDW's Transformers stuff the way I used to enjoy Dreamwave and Marvel's. They try too hard to be different and a lot of the time it doesn't work.

An earlier poster said Dreamwave used to rehash old storylines but that's not strictly true. I personally felt they had a better grasp of the characters than any other company. They were fans and their enjoyment came across in the writing. G1, Energon, War Within, the MTMTE books, I loved them all.

As I said, I will give this a chance. IDW did do a great job with Beast Wars in my opinion and after my first viewing of ROTF, when I was ready to dump Transformers altogether, their Defiance book made me give it another chance.

Am I the only fan who likes Alex Milne's work and is not too impressed with the cartoony faces of Roche?

If the story is good, I'm all for it. However, I do not like this new art style in which everyone w/o a faceplate looks like a spawn of Unicron. If Bumblebee was orange, he's be the Autobot Unicron...

For the record, I like the movie's art style in the movie universe. I loved TFA's art style once we saw more than just that first pic of Optimus Prime, which I still think looks terrible (TFA Prime's face with the face shield looks terrible looking you straight on, it needs to be drawn at an angle and it looks great). I guess the question I'd like to ask is this ... what if they applied the TFA art style to the G1 comics? I'd be in an uproar about that just as much as I am about the movie art style being applied, despite the fact that I like those art styles in their respective universes. There's a time and place for everything ... the movie art style applied to G1 isn't the place.

Seibertron wrote:I guess the question I'd like to ask is this ... what if they applied the TFA art style to the G1 comics?

My guess is that the more adult fans would cry murder because...well, that's what fanboys do, to be perfectly honest. But I would guess that the younger fans, and those who are more generous, would like it.

i have to say i love the story concept.

if im reading it right its basically the bots versus the humans with no deceps around which is a pretty unique story. it definetly looks like hot rod kills a few of em with that tank anyway.

i was thinking of dropping the book TBH.

sacralige i know but furman is a big reason i buy the book and i dont really have much faith in other writers to handle the franchise, but mccarthy didnt suck on AHM IMO and im willing to give costa a chance to see where it goes.

on the art front i can understand peoples conscern.

personally i like to see innovative reinterpretations of characters as long as it keeps the main asthetic. the UK comic had some WILDLY different styles which actually worked better depending on the story. no one did a mass slaughtering battle with dozens of characters "on screen" like dan reed for instance, and many HATED his style, but it did its job.

same for my own favorite , geoff senior. who excelled on the one on one big showdown which focuses on a central big bad.

i guess what im saying is if the colouring of this book is going to be predominantly darker the new look could work very well.

but i agree its a fecking ugly looking design.

maybe thats the point though. its alot easier to shoot bumblebee looking like he does now from a human perspective than he did in devestation. even though theyre the good guys they kinda look like villains now. it could be about ramping up the "alien" aspect of their nature and lend more credibility to humanity just wanting to kill em all.

i suppose at the end though if enough people dont like it it'll go the way of animated. afterall theres nicks wreckers book to buy instead for those that dont like this.

Darth Bombshell wrote:

Seibertron wrote:I guess the question I'd like to ask is this ... what if they applied the TFA art style to the G1 comics?

My guess is that the more adult fans would cry murder because...well, that's what fanboys do, to be perfectly honest. But I would guess that the younger fans, and those who are more generous, would like it.

I guess what would happen is, maybe the exactly opposite. Younger fans, who liked the movie style, would be shocked, and older G1 fans, who liked the easter eggs in TFA, would like it.
Not everybody though, because IDW had a unique art style at the start, and now starts do diverge in every direction from it (first with the back-to-basics DW-style AHM, now with the Bayformers' skinned tfs)

Darth Bombshell wrote:

Seibertron wrote:I guess the question I'd like to ask is this ... what if they applied the TFA art style to the G1 comics?

My guess is that the more adult fans would cry murder because...well, that's what fanboys do, to be perfectly honest. But I would guess that the younger fans, and those who are more generous, would like it.

Must be pretty crowded behind that 'fanboy' sheild of yours. What with bay himself, plus some of his followers and production companies with the consolation box out hiding behind there, you must have a regular old party.
how many weak personalities and bruised egos does it take to keep pretentious souls warm at night?

I'm also liking the hatching Don's doing in some of the line art, espcially in the shot of Ironhide's demise. I hope he keeps it up and employs cross-hatching too. I prefer seeing hatching over solid blacks in comic art. Imagine if someone with Travis Charest's hatching skills(but without the dreadful slowness) tackled Transformers art.

THE ART WORK IS **** GREAT!
IDK why some of yoyu people lack in appreciation for style.
Probably to old

Some of us aren't even 20 yet... We certainly must be old....

Yeah.. I'm not even even the legal drinking age here... I'm totally so old.

The art is bad, but the writing is horrendous!

In response to people who say they dislike "the movie style being applied to G1 comics" :

This is NOT a G1 comic. G1 ended in 1990 something. Let it go. If this was a G1 book, Spike Witwicky wouldn't be hunting/killing Autobots, it goes against every fiber of his G1 character. You *might* be able to make a case for this as a classic-oriented TF comic (also not to be confused with Classics toyline).

What should be said is that this is a NEW incarnation, and the people responsible are free to express their NEW vision in whatever style they feel appropriate. It seems that they have chosen to do this by combining stylistic attributes of several previous TF incarnations. Consider it an homage if that helps you. If you don't like it, wait for the next incarnation.

As we say in Mississippi, if you don't like the weather, wait five minutes, it'll change.

So who Liefielded up my transformers heh? I've seen worse art, but it just feels off. If the story is good I can overlook it. Wacking autobots isnt something I enjoy, especially Ironhide, as I got alittle worried in revenge of the fallen when ironhide was on fire running from the explosion and was damaged a bit. He survived to fight another day. Poor guy get slagged way too often.

As for being a fan, a true fan likes whats good, and says whats bad. I am a huge fan of the megaman games, megaman X 7 is a horrible game, me say otherwise would make me a fanboy. Someone who doesnt look at things objectively and blindly responses with emotions instead of logic. Thats the defination of a fanboy.

I dont see someone as less of a fan if this art isnt their cup of tea. I dont see people as less of a star wars fan if they think midchorians are stupid. Being objective does not make you less of a fan, just makes you objective.

hinomars19 wrote:Must be pretty crowded behind that 'fanboy' sheild of yours. What with bay himself, plus some of his followers and production companies with the consolation box out hiding behind there, you must have a regular old party.
how many weak personalities and bruised egos does it take to keep pretentious souls warm at night?

I find that to be absolutely 100% unnecessary, and not just because it happened to be directed at me.

Savage wrote:In response to people who say they dislike "the movie style being applied to G1 comics" :

This is NOT a G1 comic. G1 ended in 1990 something. Let it go. If this was a G1 book, Spike Witwicky wouldn't be hunting/killing Autobots, it goes against every fiber of his G1 character. You *might* be able to make a case for this as a classic-oriented TF comic (also not to be confused with Classics toyline).

What should be said is that this is a NEW incarnation, and the people responsible are free to express their NEW vision in whatever style they feel appropriate. It seems that they have chosen to do this by combining stylistic attributes of several previous TF incarnations. Consider it an homage if that helps you. If you don't like it, wait for the next incarnation.

As we say in Mississippi, if you don't like the weather, wait five minutes, it'll change.

The problem isn't the fact that it's not "G1". The problem is the fact that the artwork isn't that good. I've long past the point where I find the movie designs horrible, but the problem is that they're not horrible in the film. To apply that sort of design philosophy to the G1 franchise doesn't seem that great of an idea, especially given the already controversial nature of the ongoing. (Which, to be fair, only recently came to a head...)

i just wish idw would drop all their terrible storylines and restart the dreamwave storyline. it was going in a pretty awesome direction before they folded. at first they said they couldn't do this due to legal issues, but after so many years i doubt this is still the case, especially with a couple of people from dreamwave working for them and most other people from dreamwave not really doing anything right now. the idw storylines have been awful, ahm started out pretty good and then went the way of all the other idw stuuf pretty quickly, so far the only idw stuff i've like is the beast wars stuff and even that could have been a little better.

I'm totally a g1 kinda guy, but this art isn't bad. i kinda like it (except maybe the chins).

But can we kill rodimus once and for all. all he does is get good characters killed. can he get a repaint with a giant bulls-eye on him? PLEASE

Without knowing the story, I'll just say that I like the look. It's controversial but it's a nice modern update that ties Transformers now with traditional G1.

A Semi-Psychological Analysis of Styling Preferences

I would propose an explanation of the arguable difference between G1 and Movie-esque styles going in this debate. Primarily that Movie-esque is a component basis of design while G1 is a compilation. That is to say that Movie style seperated the characters into a series ot interacting components, you can see the joint work, moving hydralics, wiring and other such systems in operation with a lose array of disguise plating "hanging" around the body in a very shell or rag appearence. This style empasizes the mechanical nature by demonstrating the operations of it. By Contrast G1 style hides the majority of this under the armored 'skin' of the transformers, allowing the viewer to seem them in what could be viewed as a more complete form, where by the observable outer attire is viewed as the essence of the creation. Optimus is a large Red, White, and Blue leader (very american symbolism there) in G1, that is what we see. In the Movie he is a grey and silver skeleton with a smattering of red and blue plating at strategic points.

For many people this can be rather disconcerting as it is similar to looking at your friends as a collection of bones and muscle with strategically placed skin. You begin to view the pieces more than the overall product unified by the singular skin. There are understandable reasons for the more mechanical style. These are robotic lifeforms so it shows their robotic nature, and numerous aspects of the original designs are included for a humanistic feel. Noses, Eyes, Lips, Arrangement of limbs, fingers, and joints. So perhaps a robot doesn't need a nose, why limit to two eyes when they are not necessarily limited by the slow rate of genetic mutation in DNA. In addition the mechanical styling empasizes the alien nature of the transformers and shows them as outsiders rather than large humans in a old Knightly armor. In war, armor over such pieces seems much more logical than having loose decorative pieces laying around every which place as the later invites a random hit to destroy vital pieces.

We also tend to think of metal as a very static thing, it doesn't move, it doesn't change like flesh does. How many people watch the old G1 cartoon and think "How does Jazz's neck stretch that much when it's metal?" A skeletal build can answer that for some people by creating central points of motion around which everything else moves. Like a wheel axle as opposed to thinking of the metal of the axle itself stretching. Use of this style on the faces fills it with lines and seperations and creases to allowing for the moving of plates to simulate, but leaves the lines in all expressions creating effective ghost images of all possible emotions on the faces at all times, making it harder to directly associate a single feeling to any given expression. I can always point out that metal is hardly as static as we assume it to be, there are plenty of metals which are more fluid and flexible than our own skin. To say that it is a better understanding of mechanical nature is also to limit the technology to the understanding of someone who sees modern Earth machines. That things can only exist and operate to the extent that we understand them. This can lead to some feeling that this diminishes the splender, mystique, and advancement of the Transformers. Does the metal of Megatron's mouth adjust because they are something beyond our understanding, or because their is a hinge joint with a number 8 bolt just under his 'ear'.

The original G1 styling had the effect of strengthening the impression that these great alien machines are like us, we can see ourselves in them which allows for a greater empathy with their characters. Alienating them can create a psychological seperation for the reader and viewer and a loss of emotional connection and impact. To use the example of Ironhide's death, how many people would find his death in the 1986 movie to hold stronger emotional impact than this recent one. While this can be considered as part of the ongoing deaths and resurrections of the various characters in the various series, the concept had already been introduced by 1986 so the overall effect on the emotional impact is comparative.

Additional examination proposes the idea that preference can be based on the concept of fan-base loyalty of franchise. As is well known there are strong and varied feelings about the Bay/Movie story, that it is a massive alteration of the franchise to fit the ideals of the director and the targetting of new fan bases over creating something for the established fans. Following the styles which have become so highly associated with these movies can have the effect on many established fans that they are being further abanadoned in favor of the new fans, that their long standing faith and love of the series is being passed over in an attempt to generate and attract new fans, creating a small level of abandonment anxiety, like their preferences and wishes are being overlooked for those of people who are new to the franchise.

The summation, the G1 styling had the effect of encouraging a reader to see them in a human sense, while the skeletal, seperation style of the movies allows readers to see them in a more alien sense. The difference in the styles is the view in G1 style of the outershell being the primary component of the body system without many seperatiosn so it can be viewed as a whole while movie styling is covered with lines of movement and armoring that looks more like a shell laid over the core of the robot.

One can not particularly be seen as more true or superior to the other, the preferences exist because of the way people wish to take the series.

I really dont the body designs are an issue. They look streamlined and refined. The faces, on the other hand, are terrible. The "pointy chins" are as much as an affront to me as TFA's horrendous "Leno chins."

If the faces were more conventional I think less people would be upset.

If anything, people need to be upset at the re-hashing of the "humans think all robots are bad" motif. In 2009 that is unrealistic. What is next? Circuitbreaker?

I think it looks freking awesome! Ive always wanted to see a G1/Movie crossover

Savage wrote:This is NOT a G1 comic. G1 ended in 1990 something. Let it go. If this was a G1 book, Spike Witwicky wouldn't be hunting/killing Autobots, it goes against every fiber of his G1 character.

Actually, the concept you mention is VERY G1! I mean, look at Circuit Breaker. She too was a character unable to differentiate Autobot from Decepticon, and attacked both sides indiscriminantly. As did the Nebulans. As did Unicron. There's nothing new there at all.

And if you're trying to move away from G1, by having Spike as an Autobot hunter... well, what's the point in calling him 'Spike Witwicky' at all? Why not call him Bob Smith? Or Joe C. Beller, for that matter?

rictheron wrote:A Semi-Psychological Analysis of Styling Preferences

(snip - life's too short)

The summation, the G1 styling had the effect of encouraging a reader to see them in a human sense.

You are joking, right? Until the Movieverse came about, G1 had the least-humanoid characters of any Transformers series. Just look at the minibot Brawn - totally alien proportions. You had the faceless Whirl and Shockwave, the Wheelie and Wheeljack toys with their overlong monkey-arms, Jazz had no feet, Ironhide's head was in his chest... I could go on. If anything, G1 fans should be more used to alien-style robots than fans of the later lines.

starfish wrote:

Savage wrote:This is NOT a G1 comic. G1 ended in 1990 something. Let it go. If this was a G1 book, Spike Witwicky wouldn't be hunting/killing Autobots, it goes against every fiber of his G1 character.

Actually, the concept you mention is VERY G1! I mean, look at Circuit Breaker. She too was a character unable to differentiate Autobot from Decepticon, and attacked both sides indiscriminantly. As did the Nebulans. As did Unicron. There's nothing new there at all.

And if you're trying to move away from G1, by having Spike as an Autobot hunter... well, what's the point in calling him 'Spike Witwicky' at all? Why not call him Bob Smith? Or Joe C. Beller, for that matter?

*Sigh*

That's what I hate in Hasbro, really. They could make new Transformers series, but they are allways stuck in the "Megatron Vs. Optimus" concept. Every time they use that, it is G1 rewritten, anyhow we twist it.

I really wait for one series that will use otherwise nameless/underused characters with the big names only as supporting characters. Like in Stargate Universe.

You are joking, right? Until the Movieverse came about, G1 had the least-humanoid characters of any Transformers series. Just look at the minibot Brawn - totally alien proportions. You had the faceless Whirl and Shockwave, the Wheelie and Wheeljack toys with their overlong monkey-arms, Jazz had no feet, Ironhide's head was in his chest... I could go on. If anything, G1 fans should be more used to alien-style robots than fans of the later lines.

Yes, in fact you prove my point. First, to use the toy franchise is an unfair basis for analysis as it is restricted by the constraints of real world construction methods and cost analysis. They either, many times, can not be made accurate to a representation because materials can not work that well in that scale detail, or not made that way because of cost. Most toys are disproportionate because of these limits. Instead my analysis is based on what I shall term 'ideal media'. These are comics, drawings, movies, and TV, the areas where the appearence of a character at all times can be represented in the ideal form of the artist without any real world restrictions.

That being said, using your examples of Ironhide, Jazz, Wheelie, Wheeljack, and Brawn. Apart from their earliest appearences all of these characters were made much more human proportioned in their 'ideal media.' Heads were moved to shoulders, waists and backs were added. Faces, arms, and legs were all changed to have human elements.

Several of the mono-eye transformers were changed as well to have faces in those media. In most cases the only elements allowed that did not fit a human appearence of face were visors similar to 80's style sunglasses, mouth plates which covered the portions of the face usually associated with a full beards, or composites resembling armored helmets.

In the case of Whirl and Shockwave it can be noted that the instances of Whirl having any lines to present a personality are extremely limited. In American media, Whirl barely even appeared until the recent history. By contrast Shockwave did have abundant appearences and personality, almost always a very inhuman, computeristic, 'evil Spock' type of pure, alien, malevolent logic.

The examples were thus all altered to appear more human when given a human personality, or given a percieved inhuman personality to match an inhuman appearence.

Savage wrote:This is NOT a G1 comic. G1 ended in 1990 something. Let it go. If this was a G1 book, Spike Witwicky wouldn't be hunting/killing Autobots, it goes against every fiber of his G1 character. You *might* be able to make a case for this as a classic-oriented TF comic (also not to be confused with Classics toyline).

Sooooo... it's based on the G1 TF characters, up until now using the same G1 designs (just updated to more modern versions of the altmodes), with bios that are (mostly) updated takes on their G1 tech specs, and now is even recycling old G1 plot points and takes on G1 non-TF characters...

...but it's still somehow not a G1-based continuity. Er, if you say so.