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The7thParallel wrote:What he means to say is that TF4 is not a kids movie, but he's going to tell people that it is anyway to sell toys because Hasbro and Paramount are now mad at him for telling the truth.
I like that he 'misspoke' by uttering a completely different statement and thought process than the one he actually offered. This has PR flack written all over it.
Occasional use of words such as darn, damn, hell
Restrained portrayals of non-graphic violence
MegaDump wrote:Excuse me if I disagree entirely... High Moon and others have proved that 0% involvement of humans can make for an engaging story experience where you care about characters who are <SHOCK> machines! You can argue that expense is a factor, but look at recent films like Avatar just as an example: sure, humans are integral to that story, and I'm not advocating their complete removal from a Transformers movie, but the volume of digital effects in something like Avatar surely exceeds that of any Transformers movie. In my opinion, Bayformers are entirely more complicated than they need to be simply to hide mass-changing and damage effects, among other things. How often do you see a banged-up Bumblebee transform into a pristine Camaro? Simplify the designs, remove nonsensical elements like "breath," as we seen in ROTF and DOTM and you free up the budget to remove the characters nobody cares about i.e. humans. The most recent movie is a perfect example: Shia LeDouche and others have disappeared and what is the net result? NOBODY CARES!
MegaDump wrote:Excuse me if I disagree entirely... High Moon and others have proved that 0% involvement of humans can make for an engaging story experience where you care about characters who are <SHOCK> machines! You can argue that expense is a factor, but look at recent films like Avatar just as an example: sure, humans are integral to that story, and I'm not advocating their complete removal from a Transformers movie, but the volume of digital effects in something like Avatar surely exceeds that of any Transformers movie. In my opinion, Bayformers are entirely more complicated than they need to be simply to hide mass-changing and damage effects, among other things. How often do you see a banged-up Bumblebee transform into a pristine Camaro? Simplify the designs, remove nonsensical elements like "breath," as we seen in ROTF and DOTM and you free up the budget to remove the characters nobody cares about i.e. humans. The most recent movie is a perfect example: Shia LeDouche and others have disappeared and what is the net result? NOBODY CARES!
Video game audiences and major motion picture movie audiences are not mutually exclusive. If anything, movies (have to) appeal to far wider audiences than video games since movies can reach more audiences with their greater ubiquity. Meaning that video games can get away with some things that not all movies can, like having stories that alienate the human component.MegaDump wrote:Excuse me if I disagree entirely... High Moon and others have proved that 0% involvement of humans can make for an engaging story experience where you care about characters who are <SHOCK> machines!
In Avatar, the Na'Vi were still very human in appearance, so much so that casual film audiences can take to them much more easily than they do to the not-quite-as-humanly Transformers. Casual film audiences simply prefer humans/psuedo-humans over inhuman things.MegaDump wrote:You can argue that expense is a factor, but look at recent films like Avatar just as an example: sure, humans are integral to that story, and I'm not advocating their complete removal from a Transformers movie, but the volume of digital effects in something like Avatar surely exceeds that of any Transformers movie.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
MegaDump wrote:Excuse me if I disagree entirely... High Moon and others have proved that 0% involvement of humans can make for an engaging story experience where you care about characters who are <SHOCK> machines! You can argue that expense is a factor, but look at recent films like Avatar just as an example: sure, humans are integral to that story, and I'm not advocating their complete removal from a Transformers movie, but the volume of digital effects in something like Avatar surely exceeds that of any Transformers movie. In my opinion, Bayformers are entirely more complicated than they need to be simply to hide mass-changing and damage effects, among other things. How often do you see a banged-up Bumblebee transform into a pristine Camaro? Simplify the designs, remove nonsensical elements like "breath," as we seen in ROTF and DOTM and you free up the budget to remove the characters nobody cares about i.e. humans. The most recent movie is a perfect example: Shia LeDouche and others have disappeared and what is the net result? NOBODY CARES!
hinomars19 wrote:Avatar has only had one movie. Transformers is now in it's fourth. Avatar being digital effects heavy is the reason for that. Avatar isn't a money spinning franchise, thus Cameron has the freedom to focus on story and effects. It's also his baby, thus freedom. Hasbro are not prepared to wait well over 7 years per film-that's money to be cashed in down the drain. Bay answers to Hasbro and Hollywood, ultimately. On this respect at least. And that is why Paramount chose a director like Micheal Bay, because he can deliver what they are after.
I'm talking about Hollywood in general here, not my thoughts on Transformers as a whole. Hollywood would never allow stories like WFC and FOC or those of IDW, hence what I said.I KNOW Transformers stories without humans can work, but this is not Hollywood's opinion and there is nothing that can be done. What Bay does with what he's given is up to him, yes, but irrelevant to the fact that humans are the focal point, and this or that director could do better has no place in this thread so I'm doing my best to avoid it.
I'm not saying Hollywood always knows what the audience want. But they have a proven method that never fails them-impress the masses with quick flashy movies in quick succession and money is made. I'm not trying to stress a personal opinion on the TF movies or Micheal Bay's style, I'm just trying to say that this is how Hollywood thinks sometimes and the TF franchise has fallen under this banner. You can't compare it to Avatar because Avatar has a different commercial goal in mind. This leads back to the comment on PR, Welliver has been told to backtrack his statement because it goes against their sales pitch, essentially.
Shadowman wrote:I will put forth the theory that it was the internet itself trying to punch him in the face.
5150 Cruiser wrote:"Bayformers", are complicated because that's what is demanded of them. When people spend $15+ on a movie ticket, they want to be wowed. G1 style robots are not going to cut it.
5150 Cruiser wrote:hinomars19 wrote:Avatar has only had one movie. Transformers is now in it's fourth. Avatar being digital effects heavy is the reason for that. Avatar isn't a money spinning franchise, thus Cameron has the freedom to focus on story and effects. It's also his baby, thus freedom. Hasbro are not prepared to wait well over 7 years per film-that's money to be cashed in down the drain. Bay answers to Hasbro and Hollywood, ultimately. On this respect at least. And that is why Paramount chose a director like Micheal Bay, because he can deliver what they are after.
I'm talking about Hollywood in general here, not my thoughts on Transformers as a whole. Hollywood would never allow stories like WFC and FOC or those of IDW, hence what I said.I KNOW Transformers stories without humans can work, but this is not Hollywood's opinion and there is nothing that can be done. What Bay does with what he's given is up to him, yes, but irrelevant to the fact that humans are the focal point, and this or that director could do better has no place in this thread so I'm doing my best to avoid it.
I'm not saying Hollywood always knows what the audience want. But they have a proven method that never fails them-impress the masses with quick flashy movies in quick succession and money is made. I'm not trying to stress a personal opinion on the TF movies or Micheal Bay's style, I'm just trying to say that this is how Hollywood thinks sometimes and the TF franchise has fallen under this banner. You can't compare it to Avatar because Avatar has a different commercial goal in mind. This leads back to the comment on PR, Welliver has been told to backtrack his statement because it goes against their sales pitch, essentially.
Wait...... NO...... It can't be. I just don't believe it. A TF fan that actually speaks with logic..... I never thought I'd see the day. Sir, I applaud you.![]()
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MINDVVIPE wrote:I think what makes the comics so much superior is that the people making them are so much closer to the subject material than some crappy action movie director who learnt about Transformers yesturday, and only decided to keep making more movies not based on his own love for the Transformers, but for the fact that he saw how much OTHERS loved it... at a theme park. Pft.
hinomars19 wrote:I haven't been to this thread since I read the initial story and I couldn't help notice the discussions of too many humans and Bay's questionable directing has turned up again. Think of Micheal Bay how you will, love or hate what he does, but it is fair to say that even if James Roberts, High moon studios and Seibertron himself joined forces to write and direct TF5, it would still be 70% humans, because the film needs practical, cheap to produce characters to film within the budget and time frame. The relatability issue to a general audience is only part of the reason, and neither of those are created or controlled by Micheal Bay
Megatron Wolf wrote:Trust me this movie will not grow the "fanbase", people who hated the last 3 wont go see it & the same mindless morons that were wooed by the last 3 probably already have tickets pre-ordered. Only way the "fanbase" is going to change is if there is a dramatic change in the movies, thats never going to happen so just be happy with what you have paramount. But as for wellivers comment im surprised it took this long for someone to step in & make him change his mind, but at least he tried to warn the parents this might not be suitable for the young ones have to give him credit for that.
Money making?Banjo-Tron wrote:I pretty much agree with this, with the exception of the 'mindless morons' bit. This 'soft reboot' should have had a different creative team in place, otherwise what is the point.
It is because in first movie Bay was honest. In RotF and DotM he pretedns that he cares about story or Cybertronian characters. And that is he's worse lie so far.Banjo-Tron wrote:The first movie was pretty decent but the following 2 were overly-long and meandered to the point of incoherence.
It's because after first movie, Bay have decided that Optimus was too weak, so he personally changes scripts in any place, where Prime fights with anyone. This is why there is so many scenes where Optimus kills Decepticons that don't do anything to stop him.Banjo-Tron wrote:Also, I never understood how Optimus Prime could be so brutal, particularly considering his 'sentient beings' spiel, I mean executing beings at point blank range is not Prime, they got the characterisation wrong. I was looking forward to a change in direction
TurboMMaster wrote:Money making?Banjo-Tron wrote:I pretty much agree with this, with the exception of the 'mindless morons' bit. This 'soft reboot' should have had a different creative team in place, otherwise what is the point.
TurboMMaster wrote:It is because in first movie Bay was honest. In RotF and DotM he pretedns that he cares about story or Cybertronian characters. And that is he's worse lie so far.Banjo-Tron wrote:The first movie was pretty decent but the following 2 were overly-long and meandered to the point of incoherence.
TurboMMaster wrote:It's because after first movie, Bay have decided that Optimus was too weak, so he personally changes scripts in any place, where Prime fights with anyone. This is why there is so many scenes where Optimus kills Decepticons that don't do anything to stop him.Banjo-Tron wrote:Also, I never understood how Optimus Prime could be so brutal, particularly considering his 'sentient beings' spiel, I mean executing beings at point blank range is not Prime, they got the characterisation wrong. I was looking forward to a change in direction
MegaDump wrote:Sorry guys, I'm new to the forums & haven't figured out how to directly reply to some responses or even how to quote others,
[quote]Quoted text goes in here[/quote]
[quote="Oogaboogawoo"]Quoted text goes in here[/quote]
The Avatar example was just that, an example, I'm not suggesting that they get rid of Bay & do a rewrite, it's too late in the game for that sort of whining... But surely it makes greater business sense to develeop a comprehensive UNIVERSE that makes for a more cohesive storytelling experience for those who CHOSE to look deeper, beyond the "BOOM, BANG SPECIAL EFFECTS!' Looking at the Star Wars films as an example, there was every kind of merchandising you could possibly imagine associated with it & they're making truckloads of money even 40 years later! It's perfectly understandable that Hollywood would be risk averse to an unknown property, but surely after three box-office success stories, why not listen to some critics & formulate a coherent, logical story when there is such a rich library of background material to draw on?
Naturally, some people like these designs & some don't - but when you have a machine with a bobbling beer gut (Leadfoot), how exactly can you take that seriously?
I don't mean they need to be simplified to the point of looking like G1, since that would incite a massive shift in an already established aesthetic, I'm just saying that the characters have already been humanised to an extent that is unnecessary. Why WOULD a machine have a "beer gut?
But the worst thing is that the same characters are displayed inconsistently between shots - e.g. what is clearly the hood/door of a car is dented in robot mode yet the alt mode is a model of pristine, super shiny perfection.
Truth be told, we don't really know what happened to Cybertron in that scene, as it was pretty vague either way. At worst, it was destroyed, but at best, it was sent away back through the space bridge but now has a giant crater in the middle of it. As there was no post-DOTM fiction published, it'll take this next movie to explain to us what happened to it.MegaDump wrote:in DotM he was directly responsible for the destruction of Cybertron!
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Oh, it is not only that, in first movie, the cast was relatively small, so each character at least seems to be unique.We don't have identical characters, or generic mooks, each character at least have he's own style. Also,with smaller cast Decepticons seems to be more dangreus. For Example, Starscream beats Ironhide and Ratchet with ease, and Brawl proves to be a challenge for 4 Autobots, human troops and a silicon princess.SKYWARPED_128 wrote:I think the first movie was also given more attention in terms of details than the sequels, being the first TF movie. Bay paid a lot of attention to how the mass was maintained from one mode to the other. And while there's a huge amount of CGI magic in hiding the car roofs and windshields, the transformations at least looked feasible.
The main problem with entire Bayformers is: there is no good two-sided fights in it. It seems like there is no possible equality in this universe. Every time two transformers are fighting, one easily overpowered the other, with two exceptions in first movie: Barricade vs Bumblebee and Brawl vs Autubots. When Decepticons are wining they rocks, when they are loosing the sucks.SKYWARPED_128 wrote:Actually, if I recall correctly, I think it was Orci and Kurtzman who decided that; apparently, they learned that the audience complained of Optimus looking useless and weak, getting tossed around by Megatron.
In first movie Optimus wasn't weak: He kills Bonecrusher relatively easily (And he do that with exceptional sense of style) and he slow down Megatron and survived to tell the tale. Also, in next movies he isn't invincible at all, and in RotF and DotM comics and novels adaptation, while he is still strong, but far for beign overpowered. Many things like Prime killing Grindor or fightning with both Megatron AND the Fallen at once are entirely Bay's idea.SKYWARPED_128 wrote:It's been ages since I last listened to the commentary in the ROTF DVD, but I'm sure it was either Bay or O&K who changed it due to the audience's comments.
TurboMMaster wrote:Oh, it is not only that, in first movie, the cast was relatively small, so each character at least seems to be unique.We don't have identical characters, or generic mooks, each character at least have he's own style. Also,with smaller cast Decepticons seems to be more dangreus. For Example, Starscream beats Ironhide and Ratchet with ease, and Brawl proves to be a challenge for 4 Autobots, human troops and a silicon princess.SKYWARPED_128 wrote:I think the first movie was also given more attention in terms of details than the sequels, being the first TF movie. Bay paid a lot of attention to how the mass was maintained from one mode to the other. And while there's a huge amount of CGI magic in hiding the car roofs and windshields, the transformations at least looked feasible.The main problem with entire Bayformers is: there is no good two-sided fights in it. It seems like there is no possible equality in this universe. Every time two transformers are fighting, one easily overpowered the other, with two exceptions in first movie: Barricade vs Bumblebee and Brawl vs Autubots. When Decepticons are wining they rocks, when they are loosing the sucks.SKYWARPED_128 wrote:Actually, if I recall correctly, I think it was Orci and Kurtzman who decided that; apparently, they learned that the audience complained of Optimus looking useless and weak, getting tossed around by Megatron.In first movie Optimus wasn't weak: He kills Bonecrusher relatively easily (And he do that with exceptional sense of style) and he slow down Megatron and survived to tell the tale. Also, in next movies he isn't invincible at all, and in RotF and DotM comics and novels adaptation, while he is still strong, but far for beign overpowered. Many things like Prime killing Grindor or fightning with both Megatron AND the Fallen at once are entirely Bay's idea.SKYWARPED_128 wrote:It's been ages since I last listened to the commentary in the ROTF DVD, but I'm sure it was either Bay or O&K who changed it due to the audience's comments.
You are kidding right?SlyTF1 wrote:Optimus vs Sentinel in DOTM was pretty even
You forgot to mention that Sentinel used the shield... And when Optimus used backup it was fair, but Sentinel calling support = cheating.SlyTF1 wrote:even though Sentinel basically called an airstrike on Optimus in the middle of it
You are kidding, right?SlyTF1 wrote:The forest fight in ROTF was pretty even as well.
Three guys, each is a warrior, yet they couldn' take a single guy with civilian origing, much smaller then them. Plus entire Decepticon's tactic & combat style during forest battle was pathetic. Why they don't use their flying abilities? Why Megatron don't use the same technique he used in mission city?SlyTF1 wrote:Even though Optimus was beating the asses of 3 Decepticons at once, he still only managed to kill one before he was killed.
TurboMMaster wrote:You are kidding right?SlyTF1 wrote:Optimus vs Sentinel in DOTM was pretty evenYou forgot to mention that Sentinel used the shield... And when Optimus used backup it was fair, but Sentinel calling support = cheating.SlyTF1 wrote:even though Sentinel basically called an airstrike on Optimus in the middle of itYou are kidding, right?SlyTF1 wrote:The forest fight in ROTF was pretty even as well.Three guys, each is a warrior, yet they couldn' take a single guy with civilian origing, much smaller then them. Plus entire Decepticon's tactic & combat style during forest battle was pathetic. Why they don't use their flying abilities? Why Megatron don't use the same technique he used in mission city?SlyTF1 wrote:Even though Optimus was beating the asses of 3 Decepticons at once, he still only managed to kill one before he was killed.
MegaDump wrote:Sorry guys, I'm new to the forums & haven't figured out how to directly reply to some responses or even how to quote others, but basically what I was trying to say is the following: Bayformers, for all its positive & negative qualities, did exactly, I am sure, what Hasbro had intended - make a tonne of money.
The two lines of dialogue between Starscream & Megatron do nothing to answer any of these questions & only hint at a hostile relationship between one another that does not necessarily tell you anything about them
The Avatar example was just that, an example, I'm not suggesting that they get rid of Bay & do a rewrite, it's too late in the game for that sort of whining... But surely it makes greater business sense to develeop a comprehensive UNIVERSE that makes for a more cohesive storytelling experience for those who CHOSE to look deeper, beyond the "BOOM, BANG SPECIAL EFFECTS!' Looking at the Star Wars films as an example, there was every kind of merchandising you could possibly imagine associated with it & they're making truckloads of money even 40 years later! It's perfectly understandable that Hollywood would be risk averse to an unknown property, but surely after three box-office success stories, why not listen to some critics & formulate a coherent, logical story when there is such a rich library of background material to draw on?
Seibertron wrote:You bet there'd be humans in my own personal movie universe. The Transformers story that is most interesting to me is the "robots in disguise" aspect. Transformers fitting in amidst the human world. Fascinating concept. Yah, I like to revisit Cybertron, have a few spin-off series, etc, but at the end of the day, if you don't have humans involved the whole "robots in disguise" thing goes out the window and that is one of the big aspects that appeals to me about the overall Transformers mythologies. Transformers that transform on Cybertron is just a silly concept. I go along with it because it's part of the overall fiction, but in my opinion you've got to have humans as part of the integral part of the Transformers storyline.
I loved Fall of Cybertron and even War for Cybertron as one off series. It's good to take a break from the Transformers on Earth storyline in order to build upon the characters. But it's time to get back to Earth. FOC should be leading up to Earth. If it doesn't bring the story back to Earth and tie the whole "robots in disguise" thing back together, it disenfranchises me.
I also like some of what is being done with the IDW comics. However, both the games and the comics are too self indulged with trying to make Transformers more than it is instead of embracing what makes Transformers unique. For the most part, Transformers transform into things from the human world. Take humans out of it and it's just a story about robots more or less. Put humans in the story and you have a unique story that no one else is telling about robots in disguise living amongst us as they wage a never-ending battle that spans the vast Universe.
That concept fascinates me. That's what I signed up for 30 years ago as a 7 year old boy. That's what I want to read about, watch movies about, and take photographs of. That's the storyline that I enjoy the most.
Robots. In. Disguise.
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